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1. Michael said,

   September 8, 2005 at 2:50 pm

   Good Post… I think your view that he could be an accidental Horcrux is more likely than the Headmasters opinion it is an intentional one. As I said, I don’t think Harry is a horcrux, intentional or untintentional… but there is obviously a connection between the two because of the curse that failed.

   “First, I think you’re assuming that both the Headmaster and I have the same opinion on this. I do “believe” at this point that Harry is a horcrux. But two points I need to make. First, I put quotations around believe because of course, I can’t really know if this theory is true and I don’t have enough hubris to say with 100% certainty that my opinion is correct. Second, I believe that if Harry is a horcrux, it was unintentional on Voldemort’s part. (Therefore, I won’t address the parts of your comment that are dependent on it being an intentional act on Voldemort’s part. I’ll leave that to the Headmaster, when he gets back.)”

   Fair enough. You initial comment made me think you were in the Intentional Horcrux camp, so my challenge was made with that in mind, JUST FYI. Hence, my comments are all geared toward the debunking of said theory.

   “I agree that Voldemort fully intended to kill Harry that night. However, who’s the one person he apparently, for reasons known only to himself, didn’t plan on killing? Lily. And yet he was forced to when she sacrificed herself for Harry. I don’t know what the spell for making a horcrux entails, but perhaps Voldemort’s plan was to kill Harry, and use that murder to make another horcrux. ”

   I would say that you are correct in that statement. Dumbledore pretty much says this in book 6, that he felt LV was going to create his 6th horcrux after killing Harry.

   “Could it be that when he murdered Lily, the horcrux spell enacted itself on the next object/person that Voldemort turned his wand to? In other words, Harry.”

   Definately a possibility. Since we don’t know how the horcrux is created, that is possible. Unfortunately, without that knowledge, LV unintentionally creating a Horcrux because of the backfired spell is possible. I still go back to JK’s comments that dumbledore is never far from the mark and given that Harry was to be the 6th Horcrux, voldemort’s sould would be ripped into 8 pieces making it not as magical.

   “I don’t know at what point Voldemort realised that Harry was a horcrux. I think he must know now, (hence the order to his followers not to kill Harry) but I think he only must have realised sometime after the events of GoF, if not OotP. He appeared to be ready to kill Harry in both books.
   And then there is Harry’s scar. I believe that Harry’s scar is the best evidence of his being a horcrux. The curse Voldemort used (intentionally) against Harry was indeed Avada Kedavra. However, if my view is correct, then two spells were enacted against Harry that night. The first, AK, did not work, in fact rebounded on Voldemort because of Lily’s sacrifice and the love powered protection that it gave Harry. But I believe the scar comes from the second curse. The horcrux spell. What evidence can be given to the contrary? Remember, nobody had ever survived AK before so it’s not like we have any previous cases to go on. Everyone just assumed the scar was from the killing curse, because they had no idea what someone who survived it might look like. And it seems from Half-Blood Prince that precious few wizards even knew what a horcrux was, let alone what kind of marks it might leave on a person. And who’s to say that Harry isn’t the first person ever to be made into one?”

   As I said and you say, there is not enough evidence to debink the accidental theory. The only way to know for sure is if we find out how a horcrux is made. My interpretation of the text was the spell was cast afterwards. Your’s appears to be it is case BEFORE the murder. Obviously how a horcrux is created is going to play heavily in proving or disproving this theory.
   Regardless, I would say OOTP (when Nagini attacked Mr Weasly) would be when LV learned Harry could see in his mind, horcrux or not. Dumbledore hints at this.

   “Dumbledore indicated that even an animal or magical creature might make a poor choice for a horcrux, so it’s likely that of the few wizards who had ever made horcruxes, none attempted to make a person a horcrux. We also know that Harry’s scar is unique. In Goblet of Fire, Fudge says “…I’ve never heard of a curse scar acting like an alarm bell before…”. Granted, Fudge is an idiot, but I think he has a basic knowledge of magic, and even Dumbledore uses the words “I believe” when he tells Fudge of the powers of Harry’s scar, because he can’t be sure, having no previous cases to go on. ” - Fair point, although I don’t think it proves your point. However, there isn’t enought o go on.

   “As far as not being able to touch Harry in Sorcerer’s Stone, Dumbledore states that this is because of Lily’s sacrifice. Apparently this sacrifice has enough power to overcome the fact that Harry has a part of Voldemort’s soul in him. Why not? Voldemort can only touch Harry again in GoF, when he has used Harry’s own blood as an ingredient in his regenerative spell. ”

   Even with Lily’s protection, it seems to me possible that if a piece of the man’s soul was in harry, the protection would not work. This is evidence that is speculative however. I always saw the souls as more powerful, you see Lily’s protection more powerful. Unfortunately, it is impossible to know right now.

   “I’m not sure what you mean by not being able to “hold control over him for a long time as in book 5″. If you mean the Imperius curse, Harry seems to possess this talent in general, not just with Voldemort. In GoF, when Moody/Barty Crouch Jr. demonstrates the Imperius curse on Harry, he is able to fight it. In fact, this may be one of the powers that Voldemort unwittingly transferred to Harry with the horcrux spell. If you mean by virtue of the visions that Harry has of Voldemort’s activities and emotions (and that of Nagini, another horcrux), I wasn’t aware that Harry was being controlled in these situations, only that Harry could see into Voldemort’s thoughts, and vice versa. ”

   The part I am referring to is in the Book 5 in the Ministry. During LV and Dumbledores duel (one of my favorite parts of ALL the books), LV takes control of Harry, trying to get Dumbledore to kill him. In Book 6, Dumbledore says that LV could not stay in Harry’s body because of his split soul vs Harry’s good soul. It would seem if LVs soul was in Harry, he would be able to take control of the body and Harry’s soul wouldn’t hurt him.

   “Which brings us to Nagini. Yes, I do think she is a horcrux. However, there is one other horcrux that is up in the air. That’s the “something from Ravenclaw” horcrux. Dumbledore says in HBP, that Voldemort would have wanted something from each Hogwarts house founder as a horcrux. No magical reason, that’s just how Voldemort’s mind works. (Much like a serial killer; they often take “trophies” from their victims.) Dumbledore also says that he tried to get a job at Hogwarts, maybe to get his hands on a Gryffindor artifact (the sword?). In that he was thwarted. Dumbledore also says that he had something from Slytherin, the “S” locket found in the cave. He also has a Hufflepuff cup. This, assumes Dumbledore, leaves something from Ravenclaw. I think this may be the object Voldemort intended to make into a horcrux when he killed Harry. But as I stated before, when Voldemort killed Lily, the horcrux went into Harry instead.”

   AH, now here is where the horcrux theory breaks down, IMHO. Dumbledore says in Book 6 that LV went to Godric’s hollow to make the Last Horcrux. In other words, LV went with the intention of creating his last one. That would mean that LV already made…

   1) Diary
   2) Ring
   3) Locket
   4) Cup
   5) Another Horcrux
   6) Final Horcrux made when Harry is killed.

   In this case, LV may indeed have tried to make it out of a Ravenclaw item, but then that means he still would have created another horcrux, since the intended horcrux was #6 and we know LV wanted 7 pieces. In order for Harry to be a horcrux, LV would have had to split his soul into 8 parts. As Dumbledore says, Nagini was an emergency Horcrux, and according to him, the 6th and final one. While I admit this doesn’t completely dispel the accidental horcrux (although it is pretty strong evidence against the intentional since if LV intentionally made Harry the 6th horcrux, he would not have made Nagini one), I do think it makes it less likely so, given the big deal that JK made of the 7 pieces of the soul, I don’t see her straying from that line of thinking… especially since she said dumbledore was pretty much correct in his theory that harry is looking for 3 physical horcruxs, then the snake and then LV.

   ” The end of HBP indicates that Harry will pay a visit to Godric’s Hollow. Might not this object be found there? Maybe in whatever rubble is left of the Potter’s house (if any is left)? It may turn out to be something entirely different, but that does not matter. What matters is that Dumbledore didn’t know for sure about this horcrux, so it could have not been made yet when Voldemort attacked Harry. ”

   I actually do think he will find a horcrux in Godric’s hollow. However, my opinion is it will be Horcrux #5 that was made before LV went after Harry. I think either he had it on him or moved it since GOF and hid it in Godric’s hollow, much like he hid the necklace in the Cave. Harry finds this by accident (and goes throught he trap), finds the necklace at #12 and then tracks down Mundungus and gets the cup. if not there, they find a clue as to who RAB is or something else. However, my impression was that Dumbledore was pretty sure LV was making Horcrux #6, meaning there still is an unaccounted Horcrux.

   “That’s my story and I’m stickin’ to it”

   I look forward to hearing your response to my answers. As I said, I think your theory of an unintentional horcrux is possible. There is obviously something of LV in Harry, although I think Horcrux is going to end up being the wrong word (A piece of LV, but not the same as a horcrux). My main point was that LV making Harry an intentional Horcrux is not logical based on the text. I do concede I can’t fully debunk unintentional, but based on what I answered, I think that him being a horcrux isn’t the way she will go… although I am sure the Scar will come into play somehow.

2. RavenclawWit said,

   September 8, 2005 at 6:22 pm

   Michael,

   I agree that this theory will largely depend upon how exactly the horcrux spell is performed. My speculation that it may have to be started before the murder (with the murder effectively finishing the spell, like a let it be done sort of thing) is just that, speculation. Although it would make sense in that the wizard making a horcrux would want the spell to be enacted in the event that he was killed himself immediately after the murder. This would be especially important to a wizard making his first or only horcrux (which is presumably how most other wizards other than Voldemort did things).

   It also of course, depends on the order of each horcrux. I’m a bit rusty on book 6, because I read it quickly and borrowed it from my sister so I don’t have it in front of me to refer to. Nagini seems to be the troublesome question. How do we or Dumbledore know for sure that Nagini was the sixth horcrux? Is it possible that she was made before, possibly the fifth horcrux? If she was in fact the sixth horcrux then it seems impossible that Harry is a horcrux. But how could this be? If Dumbledore was right in saying that Voldemort went to Godric’s Hollow to kill Harry and make the last horcrux, and he failed because of the backfire of the killing curse, how could he have made Nagini? I don’t think that he was strong enough to murder anyone else or make another horcrux in his weakened state. Therefore Nagini couldn’t have been made until Voldemort was reunited with Wormtail and strengthened somewhat, and he had the strength to murder Bertha Jorkins. Perhaps that is when Nagini was made. In that case I would probably concede that Harry being a horcrux is very unlikely. But what proof do we have of that, other than speculation by Dumbledore? Especially if Rowling says that “Dumbledore is not far off from the mark”. That means he hasn’t hit the nail on the head. And if like I suspect, Nagini was created before Voldemort went to Godric’s Hollow, that would make Dumbledore close but not quite right. When I read the Mugglenet interview (that’s the one you’re referring to, correct?) the quote from Rowling on this subject says, “Dumbledore’s guesses are never very far wide of the mark. I don’t want to give too much away here, but Dumbledore says, ‘There are four out there, you’ve got to get rid of four, and then you go for Voldemort.’” It doesn’t say anything that I can see about three of them being “physical”, and at any rate, Harry is in fact a physical being. That makes 7 total horcruxes, in order:
   1) Tom Riddle’s Diary (destroyed in book 2)
   2) Marvolo’s Ring (destroyed by Dumbledore prior to book 6)
   3) Slytherin Locket (may have already been destroyed by RAB)
   4) Hufflepuff Cup (unfound)
   5) Nagini (at Voldemort’s side)
   6) Harry Potter (unintentional)
   7) Voldemort

   Well, there you have it. The best defense I can muster. Like I said before, I’m not so certain of this theory that I’d stake my life on it, but I do think that there is a lot of evidence in the books for Harry being an unintentional horcrux.

   P.S. - As far as being sure that the scar will come into the picture more, that same MuggleNet interview has someone asking Rowling if “scar” is still the last word of book 7. She says yes, even though she hasn’t even really written it yet. So you can be sure it will show up. Also, I’ve heard another theory that states that not Harry, but his scar, is the actual horcrux.

3. Michael said,

   September 9, 2005 at 12:00 pm

   “I agree that this theory will largely depend upon how exactly the horcrux spell is performed. My speculation that it may have to be started before the murder (with the murder effectively finishing the spell, like a let it be done sort of thing) is just that, speculation. Although it would make sense in that the wizard making a horcrux would want the spell to be enacted in the event that he was killed himself immediately after the murder. This would be especially important to a wizard making his first or only horcrux (which is presumably how most other wizards other than Voldemort did things). ”

   I re-read the horcrux chapter last night. Re-read it again and tell me your thoughts. In it Slughorn says that killing splinters the soul and then the horcrux is created by encasing one of those splinters in the horcrux. To me it still sounds as if the Horcrux spell is cast second, but only JK knows at this point. BOY, I wish the people on the mugglenet interview had asked her how horcruxes are made as it would make this discussion a lot easier.

   “It also of course, depends on the order of each horcrux. I’m a bit rusty on book 6, because I read it quickly and borrowed it from my sister so I don’t have it in front of me to refer to. Nagini seems to be the troublesome question. How do we or Dumbledore know for sure that Nagini was the sixth horcrux? Is it possible that she was made before, possibly the fifth horcrux? If she was in fact the sixth horcrux then it seems impossible that Harry is a horcrux. But how could this be? If Dumbledore was right in saying that Voldemort went to Godric’s Hollow to kill Harry and make the last horcrux, and he failed because of the backfire of the killing curse, how could he have made Nagini? I don’t think that he was strong enough to murder anyone else or make another horcrux in his weakened state. Therefore Nagini couldn’t have been made until Voldemort was reunited with Wormtail and strengthened somewhat, and he had the strength to murder Bertha Jorkins. Perhaps that is when Nagini was made. In that case I would probably concede that Harry being a horcrux is very unlikely. ”

   It is very true that obviously my arguments are relying on Dumbledores speculation and that being said could obviously be wrong. However, I work from the assumption that Dumbledore has the storyline right and is only fuzzy on some of the very small details. Of course if it turns out Dumbledore is completely wrong (unlikely, given JK’s comments) then all is out the window.

   Dumbledore was 100% sure that LV had created at least 4 Horcruxes at this point. He was 100% sure that the locket and cup were horcrux 3 and 4. He also seemed sure that Harry’s death was to be the creation of 6. Here is an obvious place that he could have been wrong, but again I go on Dumbledore being right.

   I doubt she was made before, although I don’t know for sure obviously. I think the snake would have been killed or die in the time between LVs defeat and the start of Book 4. So again, I go on Dumbledore’s theory. In that case, yes… you are correct, Nagini was not made until wormtail went to him. In HBP, Dumbledore says Nagini was made when LV killed Frank Bryce, the muggle caretaker at the beginning of GoF. I agree it could be possible it was Bertha Jorkins instead, either way… this was the creation of Horcrux 6.

   “But what proof do we have of that, other than speculation by Dumbledore? Especially if Rowling says that “Dumbledore is not far off from the mark”. That means he hasn’t hit the nail on the head. And if like I suspect, Nagini was created before Voldemort went to Godric’s Hollow, that would make Dumbledore close but not quite right. When I read the Mugglenet interview (that’s the one you’re referring to, correct?) the quote from Rowling on this subject says, “Dumbledore’s guesses are never very far wide of the mark. I don’t want to give too much away here, but Dumbledore says, ‘There are four out there, you’ve got to get rid of four, and then you go for Voldemort.’” It doesn’t say anything that I can see about three of them being “physical”, and at any rate, Harry is in fact a physical being. That makes 7 total horcruxes, in order:
   1) Tom Riddle’s Diary (destroyed in book 2)
   2) Marvolo’s Ring (destroyed by Dumbledore prior to book 6)
   3) Slytherin Locket (may have already been destroyed by RAB)
   4) Hufflepuff Cup (unfound)
   5) Nagini (at Voldemort’s side)
   6) Harry Potter (unintentional)
   7) Voldemort”

   I agree with you theat Dumbledore didn’t hit it 100%, but as I said, I take that to mean he has the storyline right. I think he would have figured out that Harry was a horcrux (if he was one) and let Harry know. But given that Harry knows he must destroy 4 horcruxs and then LV… how does he destroy himself if he was the horcrux? In other words, we know that the ONLY way to kill LV (I think we will concede this point) is to destroy all the horcruxs and then kill LV. Well, Ok the noble sacrifice is the only way I can think of. Kill LV to destroy Soul piece #7 and then kill self to destroy piece #6 and vanish the spectral LV. But I was also under the impression that JK said Harry will survive the series… maybe I am wrong on that mark… not sure.

   Yes you are right there is nothing saying they are physical. So I guess the only way we can disprove or provide more proof for the theory is to find out if Nagini WAS horcrux #6 and the spell order for the horcrux creation… Is the encasing spell cast before or after the murder.

   “Well, there you have it. The best defense I can muster. Like I said before, I’m not so certain of this theory that I’d stake my life on it, but I do think that there is a lot of evidence in the books for Harry being an unintentional horcrux. ”

   I can see more evidence of this theory than Seth’s theory, which I still think is disproven by the text and logic and the fact that JK is not a hack writer with a James Bond fancy. As I said, I don’t think it is the case, but I could see it happen.

   “P.S. - As far as being sure that the scar will come into the picture more, that same MuggleNet interview has someone asking Rowling if “scar” is still the last word of book 7. She says yes, even though she hasn’t even really written it yet. So you can be sure it will show up. Also, I’ve heard another theory that states that not Harry, but his scar, is the actual horcrux. ”

   She actually said yes but it could change… but that is unimportant. I could see the Scar being the unintentional horcrux.. probably more than harry… I still say though that there are 6 horcruxs, Harry not being one of them. However, I think the fact that they are connected by the scar and Harry’s blood will be important… in other words, both of us may end up being right… Harry is some kind of carrier for LV, but not a horcrux. Maybe some kind of power or such… I don’t know. The fact he used Harry’s blood and can touch him now seems to be an important key to LV’s defeat… We will find out why when we see the glimpse of triumph.

   As far as book 7, I changed my mind. I don’t think a Horcrux is hidden at Godric’s hollow. I DO think the item that was to be Horcrux 6 (or the horcrux that was to be created from Harry’s death) will be there though and it will be important in the fight. What it is, I have no idea… but I would bet on it being the only other item of Gryffendor… besides the Sword and as Dumbledore missed, the sorting hat… which could also be a horcrux as some have pointed out due to the bit of movement with LV in Dumbledore’s office… although i think that was the laying of the curse on the Dark Arts job.

   I also tend to think that if LV did make the Sorting hat or another Gryffendor item the Horcrux, then we will see Ravenclaws item at godric’s hollow. Otherwise, LV would have made Ravenclaws item the Horcrux. I have been wondering what this item would be. Someone on Mugglenet (I think) suggested the Tarot symbols, given Gryffendors Sword and Hufflepuff’s cup were involved. They seemed to think that Necklaces was a suit, but it isn’t… it is coins or Pentacles (coins with a 5 sided star). this left them to conclude that Ravenclaws item would be a wand. I liked this theory, but the founders are representative of the elements… with Gryffendor being fire. The problem is Swords, Gryffendor’s Item , is tied to Air. In fact none of the items are tied to the same as what the house is, so i think this is a dead end, even though it sounded good. However, if that part isn’t important, then I could see Ravenclaws item being a Wand or also a Staff (another symbol)

   Anyway, thats it for now. Love to hear your thoughts.

4. Michael said,

   September 9, 2005 at 1:34 pm

   http://www.newsday.com/entertainment/ny-etharry4414279sep08,0,7110184.story?coll=ny-entertainment-bigpix

   Good article on these subjects.

5. Michael said,

   September 9, 2005 at 1:43 pm

   www.dumbledoreisnotdead.com

   Interesting site.

6. RavenclawWit said,

   September 9, 2005 at 4:11 pm

   Michael,

   I love these debates. It isn’t often that I get to talk Harry Potter with somebody who doesn’t think I’m a complete “nutter” (to use Ron’s word) for actually coming up with theories and such.

   I just had a couple of responses to your last comment.

   You wrote, “In HBP, Dumbledore says Nagini was made when LV killed Frank Bryce, the muggle caretaker at the beginning of GoF. I agree it could be possible it was Bertha Jorkins instead, either way… this was the creation of Horcrux 6.”

   If Dumbledore really said that then that IS a mistake on his part, I believe. It doesn’t seem that Nagini could have been made a horcrux through the murder of Frank Bryce, since she was already present with Voldemort when Frank snuck into the house. In fact, Frank saw Nagini and it was Nagini who told Voldemort that Frank was in the hallway listening. I suppose that Voldemort could have just had this big snake around and only made her a horcrux after he killed Frank, but why? If Dumbledore said that Nagini was an emergency horcrux, what was the emergency at that point? Was it just that he needed a sixth horcrux to complete his seven pieces of soul thing? In that case, he could have made anything a horcrux. As Dumbledore said, making a living creature a horcrux is not ideal, so why would Voldemort do it if he didn’t have to? Also now that I think about it, the fact that the whole idea of making a horcrux out of a living thing was brought up in HBP, suggests to me even more that Harry may be one. Rowling tends to shine a small spotlight on things she plans on using in future books.

   “I agree with you theat Dumbledore didn’t hit it 100%, but as I said, I take that to mean he has the storyline right. I think he would have figured out that Harry was a horcrux (if he was one) and let Harry know.”

   Well, I’m still just remembering what Dumbledore said of himself in HBP, that because he’s so intelligent, his mistakes tend to be correspondingly huger. It seemed like a really important statement when he made it. As far as figuring out that Harry is a horcrux, Dumbledore could have some problems there. He has deep feelings for Harry, almost like a father/son relationship. But Dumbledore knows that a horcrux must be destroyed in order to destroy that piece of Voldemort’s soul. It’s possible that Harry being a horcrux occured to Dumbledore, but that the thought was so horrifying to him that he pushed it away, effectively blinding himself to that possibility. Especially since he had sort of made it his mission to find and destroy the horcruxes. Do you really believe Dumbledore could have brought himself to kill Harry even if he knew he was a horcrux?

   “But given that Harry knows he must destroy 4 horcruxs and then LV… how does he destroy himself if he was the horcrux? In other words, we know that the ONLY way to kill LV (I think we will concede this point) is to destroy all the horcruxs and then kill LV. Well, Ok the noble sacrifice is the only way I can think of. Kill LV to destroy Soul piece #7 and then kill self to destroy piece #6 and vanish the spectral LV. But I was also under the impression that JK said Harry will survive the series… maybe I am wrong on that mark… not sure.”

   Well, I have a theory about how that might work, but I’m still thinking it out, so I won’t say much. I’ll probably post about it sometime in the next couple of days though, so stay tuned. As for Rowling saying that Harry will survive the series, I have never read anywhere that she said that, and in fact, she seems to take great relish in implying that he may die. Also it seems unlikely that she would say that even if he is going to survive, because it would take away some of the anticipation for book 7.

   Cheers.

7. Michael said,

   September 13, 2005 at 4:34 pm

   “If Dumbledore really said that then that IS a mistake on his part, I believe. It doesn’t seem that Nagini could have been made a horcrux through the murder of Frank Bryce, since she was already present with Voldemort when Frank snuck into the house. In fact, Frank saw Nagini and it was Nagini who told Voldemort that Frank was in the hallway listening. I suppose that Voldemort could have just had this big snake around and only made her a horcrux after he killed Frank, but why? If Dumbledore said that Nagini was an emergency horcrux, what was the emergency at that point? Was it just that he needed a sixth horcrux to complete his seven pieces of soul thing? In that case, he could have made anything a horcrux. As Dumbledore said, making a living creature a horcrux is not ideal, so why would Voldemort do it if he didn’t have to? Also now that I think about it, the fact that the whole idea of making a horcrux out of a living thing was brought up in HBP, suggests to me even more that Harry may be one. Rowling tends to shine a small spotlight on things she plans on using in future books.”

   Not sure why you think that would be a mistake on Dumbledore’s part because Nagini was in house. LV used Nagini’s venom and unicorn blood to regain a corporeal (although deformed and weakened) form. That would explain why he was in the house. Emergency was my word, but yes, my guess is (and dumbledore’s as well) that he created the Nagini horcrux to complete the 7 soul pieces. He would probably want to do it sooner rather than later… although why he would not do it with Bertha is a good question. He used the living thing because he liked important things and trophy and Dumbledore said Nagini is the closest thing he has ever loved.

   That may be true that she shines a small spotlight, but I don’t think that is the case in this situation. Again though, I don’t have any proof and i could be completely wrong.

   “Well, I’m still just remembering what Dumbledore said of himself in HBP, that because he’s so intelligent, his mistakes tend to be correspondingly huger. It seemed like a really important statement when he made it. As far as figuring out that Harry is a horcrux, Dumbledore could have some problems there. He has deep feelings for Harry, almost like a father/son relationship. But Dumbledore knows that a horcrux must be destroyed in order to destroy that piece of Voldemort’s soul. It’s possible that Harry being a horcrux occured to Dumbledore, but that the thought was so horrifying to him that he pushed it away, effectively blinding himself to that possibility. Especially since he had sort of made it his mission to find and destroy the horcruxes. Do you really believe Dumbledore could have brought himself to kill Harry even if he knew he was a horcrux? ”

   Actually, that statement of Dumbledore is one of the lingering reasons I can’t make up my mind about Snape… whether Dumbledore told him to kill him or vice-versa. However, I again refer to JK’s interview on Mugglenet about Dumbledore’s guess being pretty close… meaning that I don’t think he made a huge mistake. However, I agree if Harry was indeed the accidental horcrux (Title for Book 7… Harry Potter and the Accidental Horcrux ) then Dumbledore would have a hard time killing him.

   ” Well, I have a theory about how that might work, but I’m still thinking it out, so I won’t say much. I’ll probably post about it sometime in the next couple of days though, so stay tuned. As for Rowling saying that Harry will survive the series, I have never read anywhere that she said that, and in fact, she seems to take great relish in implying that he may die. Also it seems unlikely that she would say that even if he is going to survive, because it would take away some of the anticipation for book 7.”

   I wasn’t sure about the Harry surviving interview, It was something I thought I glimpsed once. It might have been a mugglenet rumor though. We will go forward on the assumption it doesn’t exist unless someone can verify it.

   As far as self sacrifice, I did rethink my thoughts on that. Given that Dumbledore removed the soul from the ring and the ring survived in tact, then it is entirely possible that if Harry was a horcrux, the soul could be removed. Death always seemed the easiest way, so I never thought about it.

   Also, in regards to the INTENTIONAL HORCRUX, Book 4 seems to dispel the theory. LV himself says he went to kill harry that night. Yes I suppose those Die hards who follow Seth’s and others theory of the intentional horcrux could say JK was doing a red herring or LV lied to his followers… but given his intention of killing harry that night, it would seem that those excuses would not be the case. To me though, that is pretty proof positive that LV did not go to Harry’s house with the INTENTION of making him a horcrux that night. Your theory on the UNINTENTIONAL HORCRUX is still alive and kicking (although I still think that will not be the case.)

   As a fun note, I would be curious to hear this topic discussed on a new thread:

   How will the Final battle with LV be resolved?

   For this topic, I want to remove the self sacrifice angle as I just don’t see her killing Harry off and it won’t generate interesting discussion. So for the sake of argument, we will assume either Harry isn’t a horcrux, or the piece of LVs soul was removed from him if he is one. Will LV be defeated? How will Harry do it? What factors will play a part? I am curious about your thoughts as I definately have my own.

   Also, although I don’t think this is the case, wouldn’t it be funny if Snape killed LV, only it isn’t out of loyalty to Dumbledore but because HE wants to rule the world. And then Harry must kill him. Talk about a great twist in the story. It won’t happen but I was thinking it as I reread the last of HBP again.

8. Voldermania said,

   October 25, 2005 at 6:00 am

   How will he get rid of the horcruxes, though? An interesting thing would be using dementors to do this, becaues horcruxes are, after all, pieces of Voldemorts soul so….. I dont know, Harry could eat them and then have them sucked out by dementors? Someone really should come up with a refined idea to do with dementors and horcruxes. I think it could work.

9. KGC said,

   October 28, 2005 at 12:33 pm

   If Harry isn’t a horcrux, he should be. It would explain so many prior facts: how Harry ended up with some of LVs powers; why the sorting had such difficulty with Harry’s sorting; why Harry felt, in OTP, that he actually became LV and Nagini, beyond just witnessing the world through their eyes.

   Most importantly, it would help explain what has been the most difficult problem for me, which is Harry’s apparently limited capicty for love (which is supposed to be his primary advantage over LV). Sure, Harry shows great loyalty to his friends (most of the time), to the point of risking his own life for them. But lots of people do that. Greatness in love means being able to love your enemies–not just your friends. Dumbledore has it in spades. Harry doesn’t. He barely tolerates many people who are friendly to him (like the Creavey brothers). He hates his enemies.

   Lily sacrificed herself for Harry. Plenty of mothers have done the same. But she also defended Snape in school, which in many ways was more difficult. I think Lily had a great capacity for love, and that’s what made her such a powerful witch. Her greatness explains why Dumbledore thinks Harry must have the same capacity, despite the lack of evidence. It’s probably the reason why Voldemort went after Harry rather than Neville. He knew Dumbledore’s theory about the power of love, and thus judged Lily’s son as the more potent threat.

   As I said, Harry hates his enemies. But his hatred is incomplete. It’s not so strong that he can kill them, or even torture them with cruciatus. His one successful use of dark magic was the sectumsempra curse against Malfoy; but he didn’t know how bad it was, and regretted it immediately. So, while he clearly hates his enemies, his hatred is only a fraction of LV’s. Perhaps one seventh, if you get my drift. If Harry is a horcrux, it would explain why his capacity for love has fallen so short of the greatness which Dumbledore suspects. The capacity is there, but it has been held in check by a little piece of LV’s soul. His capacity for love, inherited from his mother, in turn has checked the power of Voldemort’s sould within him, protecting him from becoming an instrument of Voldemort’s will.

   If Harry is a horcrux, then obviously he must destroy that piece of LV’s soul before destroying LV. Can he do this without killing himself? As Michael noticed, this might be possible. Dumbledore destroyed one bit of soul without harming the ring in which it was hidden. And we know of one way that a soul can be extracted from a body while leaving the body entact–the dementor’s kiss. Voldermania is on to something, perhaps.

   However Harry does it, it would sever all the connections he had in the past with LV. No more parseltongue, for instance. Harry would have to face Voldemort by himself, without any of Voldemort’s own special brand of magic. Just his own natural born capacities, including the greatest gift his mother bestowed upon him–greatness in love, now unchecked by any remnant of Voldemort’s hate.

10. RavenclawWit said,

    October 28, 2005 at 4:03 pm

    While I do think Harry being a horcrux would explain the things you mentioned in your first paragraph, I take exception with the idea that Harry doesn’t have a great capacity for love. For one thing, let’s think about how Harry was raised. For the first eleven years of his life (minus the one he spent with his parents) he was raised in a completely loveless environment and basically emotionally abused. The average child raised like that would probably be completely unable to love anyone if not well on their way to becoming a serial killer. So Harry’s capacity for love is astounding in that respect.

    As for his enemies, Harry does hate people like Voldemort and Snape, who he sees as having a choice between good and evil and who choose evil. But as you say, he doesn’t hate them enough to use cruciatus or AK against them, which is a mark of true hate. As for Draco, at the end of HBP, Harry feels sorry for him because he comes to see Draco as a pawn of the evil he has been subjected to all his life. After his personal history with Draco, I think that’s pretty amazing.

    As for people like the Creavey brothers, it’s only human to get annoyed with people when they act silly; and the Creavey’s constant fawning over him must get pretty old. But when I consider Harry’s character, I’m positive that he would willingly lay down his life for both of them if they were in danger because that’s just the way he is. I think he would give his life for anybody to save them from Voldemort, whether he knew them or not. And that’s precisely the point of the prophecy. The prophecy isn’t true because of a predestination that takes away the free will of both Voldemort and Harry, it’s true because Voldemort’s character is one of hate, evil and greed and because Harry’s is one of love and self-sacrifice. Like Dumbledore asks Harry in HBP, if the prophecy didn’t exist, would you still want to kill Voldemort? Harry says yes, because he recognizes that Voldemort presents not just a danger to Harry and his friends, but to the entire world. I believe that even if Harry had no friends to protect, he would still fight Voldemort because of his capacity to love the world at large, even people he doesn’t know.

11. KGC said,

    October 28, 2005 at 9:00 pm

    I forgot to mention in my first comment that this was a great post. When I first heard the Harry as horcrux theory I thought it was silly; but on my second reading I became a believer. You’ve nudged me along a bit more.

    I agree that Harry has a great capacity for love. It’s just that this great capacity is often not apparent from his actions. Sure, his abused childhood mitigates those actions. But to say that he’s more loving than we’d expect (in the circumstances) is different than to say that he shows a lot of love. To defeat Voldemort, he needs more than the capacity. He needs the actuality.

    His willingness to die for the greater good is courage, not love. Love is a relationship we have with individual people, when we treat them with patience, understanding, respect, kindness, and foregiveness, despite their flaws and shortcomings. Harry treats a few people this way, but not many. An abused childhood is an understandable reason (though fawning is not). I think of the horcrux theory in the same way–a bit of Voldemort’s hateful soul inside of him, thwarting his natural capacity for love, making him too quick to anger, too long holding a grudge. But whatever his reason, he’ll need to get overcome it in book 7, don’t you think?

    Don’t get me wrong…I’m not saying that Harry’s behavior is less loving than average. And in his circumstances (especially if he’s a Horcrux), that’s saying something. But if DD is right, and love is the power that will defeat LV, he’ll need to be much more loving than average. Expelling LV’s soul fragment would be a good start.

    By the way, I like these debates for the same reason as you. I can’t have this kind discussion with many people that I know, other than my eight-year-old daughter. Thanks.

12. Little Miss Know-It-All said,

    November 3, 2005 at 4:37 pm

    Ummmm… Nice to find my people, now I can stop trying to suck my family and friends into Horcrux Theory conversations….

    I think the Harry as a Horcrux Theory is interesting, and I’m especially excited about the dementor/soul-sucking idea as a Horcrux “cure,” but there are more (less dramatic maybe) options that could still tie-up some loose ends.

    Ye Olde Liste:

    1) Tom Riddle’s Diary (destroyed by Harry)
    2) Marvolo’s Ring (destroyed by Dumbledore)
    3) Slytherin’s Locket (unkown fate, taken by R.A.B.)
    4) Hufflepuff’s Cup
    5) Nagini
    6) “something of Ravenclaw’s or Gryffindor’s”
    7) Voldemort himself

    If not HP, #6 is likely to be a Gryffindor item (just because) and I think it might be the Sorting Hat. In Book 6, Dumbledore speculates to HP after a trip into the Pensieve that Voldemort came to ask for a job at Hogwarts because he wanted to get another relic of one of the House founders to make a Horcrux from. Dumbledore says that the “only” surviving relic of Gryffindor’s (Godric’s sword) is safe - but he seems to forget about the Sorting Hat — which we learned from one of it’s start of term songs was Godric’s too.

    Now maybe Rowling made a mistake here and just forgot about the Sorting Hat. Or maybe not. If Dumbledore neglected to keep an eye on the Sorting Hat it would be an interesting choice. The Sorting Hat itself has said that it knows what it does is “wrong.” The Hat preaches unity amongst the students but divides them into houses because that is its purpose. Destroying the Hat would destroy the dividing of wizards, a theme of the book.

    Re: R.A.B.’s locket, check out this great article about with a smart theory about the fate of the Locket: http://www.canmag.com/news/4/8/1893

13. Khushi said,

    November 22, 2005 at 3:15 am

    I think there maybe another Horcrux. Remember DD says LV was extremely angry with Lucius Malfoy for giving (not literally…) the diary? So he probably knows he’s one Horcrux less. So… maybe one more somwhere?

    All theorys to the 6th Horcrux:

    1) Tom Riddle’s Diary (destroyed by Harry)
    2) Marvolo’s Ring (destroyed by Dumbledore)
    3) Slytherin’s Locket (unkown fate, taken by R.A.B.)
    4) Hufflepuff’s Cup
    5) Nagini
    6) “something of Ravenclaw’s or Gryffindor’s”
    7) Voldemort himself

    Now lets suppose that Harry IS a Horcrux. The list:

    1) Tom Riddle’s Diary (destroyed by Harry)
    2) Marvolo’s Ring (destroyed by Dumbledore)
    3) Slytherin’s Locket (unkown fate, taken by R.A.B.)
    4) Hufflepuff’s Cup
    5) Harry
    6) “something of Ravenclaw’s or Gryffindor’s”
    7) Voldemort himself

    Now LV knows the diary has been destroyed. He needs one more Horcrux. Nagini? Or lets count out Harry… LV wanted something of EVERY house. The Sorting hat, PLUS something of Ravenclaw’s?

    1) Tom Riddle’s Diary (destroyed by Harry)
    2) Marvolo’s Ring (destroyed by Dumbledore)
    3) Slytherin’s Locket (unkown fate, taken by R.A.B.)
    4) Hufflepuff’s Cup
    5) Sorting Hat
    6) “something of Ravenclaw’s”
    7) Voldemort himself

    Still, LV now needs another Horcrux… so Nagini?

    I know this is full of holes and based on too many suppositions, as I haven’t really thought it over. But its an idea…

14. Hermoiny_is_hot said,

    December 4, 2005 at 8:59 pm

    First off, this is my first and most brilliant time every contributing to a blog. I hope you find this next ….long….. post to be educating. I REALLY recommend you read everything I have to.

    To start things off, when I first finished HBP, I knew Snape wasn’t a bad guy. So I went online and found this man, who truly has a brilliant point. You MUST read this, it takes a good 10 minutes.

    —————————————————
    Theory on why Snape killed Dumbledore…and who has the initials R.A.B. from the locket?
    JUST SO THIS IS CLEAR, I DID NOT WRITE THIS. I FOUND IT ON ANOTHER WEBSITE, AND THINK THE MAN IS A GENIUS. I WISH TO SHARE IT WITH EVERYONE, AND I THINK THATS OK CONSIDERING HE HAD IT POSTED ON HIS WEBSITE. I GIVE HIM FULL CREDIT. http://www.livejournal.com/users/garlandgraves/3409.html..cutid1

    HERE IS HIS THEORY: (READ EVERYTHING….VERY INTERESTING AT THE END)

    I’ve been thinking more about HBP…

    I’ve been trying to think of possible reasons for Snape to have killed Dumbledore and not be evil. Yeah, I’m reaching, leave me be. I’m in denial. It’s a happy place. And I wouldn’t put it past JKR to be really sneaky like this.

    Anyway, as I said, what if there was a way for Snape to have killed Dumbledore but not be evil? Snape has always shown his willingness in the past to face up to reality, to be the one to make the hard choices, to realise and act upon what others won’t or can’t. He’s the ultimate realist, nothing emotional or fanciful about Snape. And Dumbledore has never shown any hesitation in the past in sacrificing his pawns if the need arises. So what if this time Dumbledore was the pawn he was sacrificing? He said to Harry in the cave that Harry’s blood was ‘worth’ more than his, that Harry was more important than Dumbledore. What if the same is true of Snape?

    After all, Snape made the Unbreakable Vow in order to prove his loyalty to Bellatrix and Narcissa. If he hadn’t done what Malfoy failed to do, kill Dumbledore, he would have died himself. And if Snape was loyal to Dumbledore, then Dumbledore would doubtless have known that, would have known that the situation might potentially arise where it would be a choice between his life and Snape’s. Now if Dumbledore felt that ultimately Snape was more important to the fight against Voldemort than he himself was, I don’t think he would have had any hesitation about sacrificing his own life to save Snape. And Harry. And by extension, the Wizarding World. And, of course, the only way for him to do that would be for Snape to fulfil his Vow and complete Malfoy’s task - and kill Dumbledore.

    Which takes me back to Chapter Twenty-Seven…and Dumbledore’s death. JKR writes that Dumbledore was ‘pleading’ with Snape when he says his name. ‘Pleading for his life’ is the inference Harry makes. Now Dumbledore in the past has never seemed to me to be the pleading type. And he has no fear of death - as far back as the first book, he tells Harry that ‘to the well-organised mind death is but the next great adventure’. Dumbledore is not afraid to die. He tries to dissuade Malfoy from killing him because he doesn’t want to see Draco become a murderer at just sixteen, not when there is still hope for him, not when it is clear Malfoy doesn’t want to do the actual deed. He’s trying to save Draco from himself here, not save his own life.

    But he must know, he must know, that if Malfoy doesn’t kill him then Snape has to. And he also must know that Snape would. And that’s the ‘revulsion and hatred etched in the harsh lines of his face’. Snape is revolted by what he has to do, hates Dumbledore for putting him in that position and himself for what he’s about to do. But he would do it. And Dumbledore knows that. Perhaps that’s where the pleading comes in. Dumbledore isn’t begging Snape not to kill him, he’s pleading with him to have the courage to do what needs to be done. And Snape may be many things but he’s not a coward. So he kills Dumbledore.

    The more I think about this, the more I see holes in Dumbledore’s death scene. This is one of the most powerful wizards alive, the only man Voldemort is afraid of, the man who defeated Grindelwald, the man who in the previous book managed to escape four Aurors without even breaking a sweat, and he’s practically felled by a sixteen-year-old armed with Expelliarmus? Yes, he was weakened by the whatever-it-was he drank in the cave, but even then he managed to conjure up the fire to save Harry from the Inferius. And he managed to practically outrace Harry on the broomsticks in order to reach Hogwarts. Yet suddenly he can’t even defeat Draco Malfoy? Dumbledore’s not omniscient, he can’t have known that there were other Death Eaters about to appear on top of the tower - so why freeze Harry, ostensibly to ’save’ him? If it were simply a matter of stopping Draco, he wouldn’t have needed to freeze Harry to stop him moving to save Dumbledore. A simple Stupefy or Petrificus Totalus and problem solved, Draco’s out cold. Harry’s never needed protection from Draco Malfoy before. So why now?

    The only explanation I can think of is that Dumbledore knew he had to die. Even if Malfoy didn’t kill him then, even if the other Death Eaters didn’t appear on the tower, and the Aurors defeated them and returned calm to Hogwarts, the Unbreakable Vow would still stand. Snape would have to carry out the deed Draco failed to do or he would die. So Dumbledore is faced with three choice:

    Save Snape’s life, sacrifice his own, and force a sixteen-year-old boy to become a murderer.
    Remain alive but watch Snape die.
    Sacrifice his own life, save Snape’s and provide him with an unshakeable demonstration of his loyalty of Voldemort.
    I think Dumbledore would choose the last option. I think Dumbledore did choose the last option.

    And what of Snape, are his actions after Dumbledore’s death those of an evil man? It’s hard to judge. He runs away, he flees with Draco, but then of course he would. Dumbledore has allowed him to prove, once and for all, that he’s Voldemort’s loyal man. He has to live up to that act now. So he runs. But he also stops other Death Eaters from torturing Harry, ostensibly because Voldemort wants him alive. He taunts Harry, but then he’s always done that.

    But the bit that made me pause the most is when Harry is down on the ground, saying to Snape, ‘kill me, then. Kill me like you killed him, you coward’. And Snape screams ‘don’t call me coward’, but there’s a pause between ‘don’t’ and ‘call me coward’, as though the ‘don’t’ was an instinctive response to what Harry is saying about Dumbledore, and he’s then twisted it into something else. And his face is twisted, distorted, ‘as though he was in as much pain as the yelping, howling dog stuck in the burning house behind them’. I doubt a man as self-possessed and in control as Snape usually is - with some exceptions, I will grant you - would react with such fury and pain to a sixteen-year-old calling him a coward.

    No, the pain is in response to his killing of Dumbledore. If Snape were a true Death Eater, a true supporter of Voldemort, if he really hated Dumbledore, if he really had betrayed him as completely as it at first appears…would he be in pain over his death? No. He’d be exultant, gleeful, triumphant, gloating - all the petty reactions we see from him in POA when sirius is captured and awaiting the Dementor’s Kiss. He would be enjoying every moment, Dumbledore’s death, Harry’s reaction. And he isn’t. He quite clearly is not reacting in this way. No, there’s only pain. But of course he has to hide it, cover it up, make sure that Harry doesn’t see it…because Snape has to be the loyal Death Eater now if he wants to stay alive. Any life he had as a double agent is gone now; he’s akin to sirius Black now, believed guilty of a crime he didn’t commit: only Snape did commit it, but not for the reasons everyone supposes. So he casts whatever hex he casts on Harry, the ‘white-hot, whiplike’ slash across the face, the ’spots of light’ dancing in front of Harry’s eyes, to cover his reaction, to reinforce his new role. And then he’s gone, to what we can only find out in the next book.

    So you tell me, am I reaching? Am I in denial? Probably, but whilst I’ve been writing this I’ve been flicking back and forth through the book and I’m more and more convinced that there’s more to Snape than we’re seeing here. Although hasn’t that always been the case?

    ETA: I knew I’d forgotten to add something! In retrospect, what Hagrid says in Chapter Nineteen makes more sense now, about Dumbledore being angry with Snape. Snape is saying he doesn’t want to do it (what?) anymore, Dumbledore saying he’d agreed to it and that was that. At the time we don’t know what they’re arguing about, we still don’t, not really.

    But it’s not a stretch to suppose that Dumbledore’s possible death is something they’ve talked about, in fact I’m sure they must have spoken about it at some point. Perhaps they didn’t necessarily know the eventual circumstances, but with the position Snape was in it was always a possiblity that there’d come a point where it would come down to Snape taking drastic, perhaps unforgiveable actions or risking his cover being blown. I’m sure they would have been prepared for such an eventuality. I’m sure any good spy and handler would be aware that such situations can happen, and I’m sure that then just as now it’s the mission that matters, not the individuals involved. But that doesn’t mean Snape would like it. Or would even be sure of his ability to carry out such a plan.

    ETA2: And one more thing - when Snape and Harry are duelling, Snape is giving him advice! Harry’s trying to kill him and Snape is blocking him every time because he can read Harry like a book. Harry is trying to kill him and Snape is giving him Legilimens advice! ‘Blocked again, and again, and again until you learn to keep your mouth shut and your mind closed, Potter!’

    Oh, Snape. Break my heart, why don’t you?

    ETA3:
    First of all, R.A.B. has to be Regulus Black. This has practical implications for Harry because, when he figures it out, it will help him find the real locket Horcrux.

    Where is the locket? On page 116 of OotP (U.S. paperback edition), sirius and the kids are cleaning out an old cabinet which contains items such as a snuffbox with Wartcap powder, a music box, and a ‘heavy locket which none of them could open’. I’d bet that’s the locket in question.

    Now, one of three things could have happened to the locket, which we assume was thrown into the bin with the other things that had been in the cabinet: either it went out with the rest of the rubbish, or Kreacher nicked it (and Harry will have to go back to Grimmauld Place to retrieve it) or Mundungus stole it and fenced it. I’m willing to bet on this last one; why else would the scene with Mundungus and the stolen Black family silver have been given such prominence in HBP, except to remind us of Mundungus’ activities so that it’s not a shock when JKR brings it back up in the seventh book?

    Aside from the practical implications for getting and destroying the locket, Regulus’ note sheds some interesting light on Regulus’ death, Dumbledore’s death and Snape’s ‘betrayal’. Why is this?

    Regulus states that he knows he will be dead by the time the Dark Lord gets the note. Not because the Dark Lord or anyone else will kill him for stealing the Horcrux (Dumbledore mentions, in his conversation with Harry about Riddle’s diary, that Voldemort probably doesn’t automatically know when a Horcrux is destroyed); instead, I think Regulus knew that the potion in the cave would most likely kill him when he stole the Dark Lord’s locket Horcrux, which changes our conception of his death. Regulus was not, as sirius said, an idiot who joined up and then got himself killed when he saw what he was asked to do and backed out; instead he found out about some of Voldemort’s most precious plans for immortality and made an active attempt to thwart them. He went out in a blaze of self-sacrificial glory.

    Now, what does this mean for Dumbledore and Snape? Well, it gives us the knowledge (or at least the hint) that the potion in the cave is probably going to kill the drinker. Dumbledore hints at this too; he implies that, though it won’t kill immediately, it will probably leave the drinker alive long enough to cause a lot of pain or perhaps even allow Voldemort to find out who had attempted to steal one of his Horcruxes. The biggest confirmation that the potion is lethal, and that Dumbledore knows or at least suspects it, is that he does not allow Harry to drink it–he all but says that he is expendable and that Harry is not. Also, later, there is the fact that Dumbledore chooses to save Harry (well, save him from himself, really, by Freezing him so he can’t do anything rash on the tower) instead of defending himself; defending himself is less important because he knows is going to die anyway.

    So Dumbledore knows he is dying during the scenes after retrieving the locket, during the return to Hogsmeade and on top of the tower. Throughout the conversation with Malfoy he grows steadily weaker. Even as he is convincing Malfoy not to kill him, he is already dying (and probably has known he was coming close to death all year anyway, or why would he have taken the trouble to pass his work on the Horcruxes on to Harry?). Dumbledore reasons with Malfoy, not to save his own life but to spare Malfoy having blood and murder on his hands. The fact that Dumbledore is dying anyway would not make Malfoy’s act of murder any less despicable, and Dumbledore does not want Malfoy to become a murderer; we get the impression that Malfoy is not naturally evil, anyway, in this scene. He is under extreme coercion.

    Things change a bit when the Death Eaters arrive–now there is the new problem of keeping Malfoy alive. Dumbledore knows that, if Malfoy doesn’t kill him, Malfoy will probably either be killed on the spot by the Death Eaters or taken to Voldemort, who will kill him.

    So, here’s my theory: when Snape appears, Dumbledore knows this is the perfect opportunity to accomplish all of his immediate goals–save Malfoy’s life and keep him from doing a despicable act, plus allow Snape to fulfill his Unbreakable Vow (which I am sure he knew all about, just as he knew all about Malfoy’s plan) and therefore a) not die and b) remain ‘in’ with the Death Eaters as a spy–and all this simply by doing something he knew he was going to do anyway: die.

    However, we are stuck in Harry’s POV, so all we see is Dumbledore apparently pleading with Severus for his life, then Snape ‘gazing at the professor for a moment’ with a ‘look of hatred and revulsion’ and finally casting the Killing Curse. Later Harry will report this to his friends and members of the Order and it will be seen as a great betrayal (by everyone except Harry, who has ‘known’ it all along).

    But back up a moment: Snape gazes at the Headmaster for a moment. Two accomplished Legilimens do nothing but look at each other for a moment in the midst of a heated battle situation, and we are to assume there is nothing passing between them? Oh, no. I think Dumbledore is asking Snape, via his thoughts, to kill him. Remember that Dumbledore’s pain and delirium in the cave have already led him to ask for release by death (’Kill me, ‘ he says to Harry). Now Dumbledore is a bit more rational, but he sees that his own death at Severus’ hands can serve a purpose. His pleas are not for his life but for his death.

    Snape does it without question or argument, just as he went back to Voldemort at Dumbledore’s behest after the Tri-Wizard tournament. Unlike Harry, Snape takes Dumbledore’s word as law.

    Reinterpreted in light of a request by Dumbledore, Snape’s look of ‘hatred and revulsion’ takes on a new meaning. This is not hatred and revulsion for Dumbledore personally (or what Dumbledore stands for) so much as hatred and revulsion for being asked to do this to Dumbledore, for being asked to add murder to all of the other things he has done. This may explain also Snape’s extreme reaction, later, to being called a coward; he has just been asked to kill the man in whom he placed his trust–the man who has protected him for fifteen years, and for whom he has done dangerous things, including spying and now committing murder in order to keep a student safe and uncorrupted by evil–and has complied with the request. Of course being called a coward after all this, and by Potter, would rankle.
    ————————————————

    Now, I “think” this guy is right on track. I say “think” bcs… don’t ever underestimate Rolling. She’s awsome.

    The next thing is….

    The Headmaster is wrong. Sorry, your point isn’t logical or possible.
    RavenclawWit is a smart guy, and I WAS 100% SURE that he made the most logical point on the web (and I’ve read a lot); until, reality set in. No, harry isn’t the horcrux (and believe me I thought about a dementor sucking LV’s soul out of harry). HIS SCAR IS! Now, don’t loose me here. I read someone say that earlier in another or this blog, but now I see the light, ladies and germs! I went browsing through JKR’s website and found what makes the scar 99% IT! I don’t expect a new reader to understand me, only RavenClawWit and Headmaster might understand because the’ve been reading blogs and other stuff a lot.

    But anyway, back to JKR’s site. In her FAQ section, she answers “What is the significance of Neville being the other boy to whom the prophecy might have referred?”

    And fellas!, this is where she gives it away… I’ll quote the paragraph…

    “In effect, the prophecy gave Voldemort the choice of two candidates for his possible nemesis. In choosing which boy to murder, he was also (without realising it) choosing which boy to anoint as the Chosen One – to give him tools no other wizard possessed – the scar and the ability it conferred, a magical window into Voldemort’s mind. ”

    I want you to read that very carefully! NEED I EXPLAIN MORE! YES, JKR just CONFIRMED that making Harry a horcrux WAS accidental (”without realising it”)!!!!! (sorry im excited) *…JKR PLEASE TriCk US ALL!*

    “choosing which boy to anoint as the Chosen One” (meaning to kill LV) “- to give him tools no other wizard possesed” (obviously) “THE SCAR and the ABILITY IT CONFERRED, a magical window into Voldemort’s mind”

    DON’t YOU sEe!!! THE SCAR IS THE HORCRUX! “magical ability to see into LV’s mind” Part of LV is in harry! That explains GoF’s visions and Mr. Weasly and Nagini! OBVIOUSLY!

    I will accept that Harry, because the scar is on him, might be the horcrux. So I still think Raven might be right.

    Here are some d’urn good theories of mine after I just said all that….

    1. Harry get’s LV Soul sucked out by Dem.Kiss, destroys all other horcruxes and then kills LV.

    2. Harry removes scar? Destroys? Far fetched, possible, NOT LIKELY. (this leads my to think that the scar itself isn’t actually the horcrux, harry is, but im too lazy to edit out what i said before about the scar being ‘it’. Sorry im think about this stuff as im writting!

    3. Hermoine (that sexy girl), helps harry get LV soul out of him.

    4. Other possibilities…..

    We’ll… if I had anything else to say, I cant remmember right now. I will when i read the responses, but before I end, i have some other briefe stuff.

    Theory A: Ron DOES DIE

    Trelawane prophesies “When 13 dine, the first to rise is the first to die”
    We all know Sirius dies in the DOM when Bellatrix hits him into the stone arch (BY THE WAY I think that may be an important thing).

    BUT!!! I distinctly remmember another 13person dinner. I can’t remmember when, i think it was the christmas where Percy and the Minister visit when Harry, Herm, Weaslies, and others (13 people) were eating. You all remmember? The minister was trying to get harry to “support the ministery”? WELL, I think Ron is the 1st to rise! I dont have my books with me, so can someone please check that out? Thanks.

    Theory B: Lupin plays a major role in book 7.

    Why not! Underground with wearwolves spying and most importantly, the last of Jame’s best friends! Wormtail is evil, Sirius is dead, and Snape (although not a friend) will die or have a major role already.

    Theory C: Hagrid and the giants

    I have NFI what he may/may not do… But it seems logic that the giants would be a big thing (given that JKR wrote alot about them in a couple chapters).

    JKR is reading this, smiling, and saying to herself “These guys are going to be so shocked when they find out that Darth Vader ends up killing LV”

    I’m spent. Someone else come up with a post better than this one. But then again, I’m probably all wrong from the start. Who knows but JKR.

    *Sorry but is it just me or is Emma Watson a gem… or what*

15. Hermoiny_is_hot said,

    December 4, 2005 at 9:11 pm

    AFTER READING MY BLOG POST DIRECTLY ABOVE THIS ONE, CONTINUE TO READ THIS ONE:

    Theory D: Regulus Black Still Wears the Locket

    Courtesy of http://www.canmag.com/news/4/8/1893:

    —————————————————-
    What! I know, sounds crazy. I would first like to thank ‘Elizabeth Smith’ for pointing out this little detail to me.

    What if Regulus Black was able to get into the cave, grab the Horcrux Locket, put it around his neck, but never get out alive? Let’s take a passage from Harry Potter and the Half-Blood Prince before I continue [pp. 565-566]:

    “Professor?” he said finally. “Do you think the Horcrux is here?”
    “Oh yes,” said Dumbledore. “Yes, I’m sure it is. The question is, how do we get to it?”
    “We couldn’t… we couldn’t just try a Summoning Charm?” Harry said…
    “Certainly we could,” said Dumbledore, stopping so suddenly that Harry almost walked into him. “Why don’t you do it?”
    “Me? Oh… okay…”
    Harry had not expected this, but cleared his throat and said, loudly, wand aloft, “Accio Horcrux!”
    With a noise like an explosion, something very large and pale erupted out of the dark water some twenty feet away; before Harry could see what it was, it had vanished again with a crashing splash that made great, deep ripples on the mirrored surface. Harry leapt backward in shock and hit the wall; his heart was still thundering as he turned to Dumbledore.
    “What was that?”
    “Something, I think, that is ready to respond should we attempt to seize the Horcrux.”

    After the shock:

    “Professor?”
    “Yes, Harry?”
    “Do you think we’re going to have to go into the lake?”
    “Into it? Only if we are very unfortunate.”
    “You don’t think the Horcrux is at the bottom?”

    We later learn that ‘that something’ was a dead, or undead, person reacting to Harry’s Summoning Charm. However, we also hear that these dead wizards [and muggles?] should not be active until Harry and Dumbledore get their hands on the object at the center of the lake. Harry also has his doubts, and questions if he and Dumbledore will need to go in to the depths of the lake to recover the Horcrux. Could Harry have been right? Remember, JK Rowling allows her characters to give us blatant hints sometimes. For example, take the hint during Goblet of Fire when the kids say that, during the mess at the campsite, Winky looked as if being dragged by an invisible person. She was being dragged by a person in an invisibility cloak! But, to continue…

    What if that corpse we saw breach the surface of the lake was not any corpse, but the corpse of Regulus Black? Why would this single body react to the summoning charm, unless this same body was wearing the same Horcrux that Harry was tring to summon? Imagine, Harry fires the charm, the Horcrux reacts, but is also pulling the body wearing it. Harry, expecting only a small object, did not fire a spell strong enough to carry other objects with it. We can also say that Harry, shocked from the body exiting the water, was somehow able to release the Horcrux from his charm.

    Is it possible? Who knows! But it would have been shear genius by JK Rowling if she did/does it this way. We now have multiple options for where the Horcrux is and this one is easily the least likely. So wouldn’t that make it the most likely?
    —————————————————

    Wow. That’s another possibility.

16. fan said,

    December 26, 2005 at 2:34 pm

    ok harry was a horcrux BUT
    LV took his blood LV says he wants harrys blood cause he needed to extract the horcrux from harry
    LV wanted to make a horcrux from a gryfindore item the only thing is sthe sword but DD doesnt let LV in as teacher
    LV wants to work at hogwarts not for the kids but to find the sword
    “only a true gryfindore could’ve pulled out the sword”
    not having the sword LV goes to “godrics” hollow -godric gryfindore-
    to get a gryfindore item like james or harry
    most likely lily knows how a horcrux is made from slughorn
    she also knows that avada kadvra destroys the souls BUT if she can - she’ll block it by putting her soul in the way i know this needs a murder OK she murders herself remember LV says to lily you dont need to die
    does LV know lily? yes from slughorns partys she was popular and she went to the partys - LV was also invited he was working for burkes

17. ADAM TAN said,

    January 16, 2006 at 7:51 am

    THE ONLY UNKNOWN THING ABOUT THE HORCRUX IS THE HORCRUX SPELL.

18. jane said,

    February 11, 2006 at 2:46 pm

    I just read HP6 so am joining in a bit late.
    JKR herself said that Harry was NOT a horcrux so… scar maybe dunno but surely not harry.
    Snape is of course the good one. He was deeply in love with Lily, therefore his hate for James and Harry, and it was for his sake that LV was thinking of sparing Lily - and it is Lily’s death that made Snape once and for all become the good one. Maybe LV himself was in a way fond of her, though he was not able to love. Snape was, however, and of course it hurts him to see Harry - the living reminder of his love and of her death, the reason of her death actually.
    I agree he was made by Dumbledore to kill him - maybe there was even just another unbreakable vow between the two so that Draco may be saved, and also the fact that D drank the potion can be concealed.
    The RAB idenitiy I think is quite clear, especially since Norwegian and Swedish translations with RAZ and RAS appeared (Black=Zwaarts=Swarts), and I did also immediately think already while reading that Regulus died of drinking the potion and not because he was killed. Though maybe, like Dumbledore, he preferred to mask his death (otherwise LV would realize from his mysterious death what he had done) and ran into some Dementor or whatever…
    Of the existing horcrux theories few seem plausible so far. Apart from the Slytherin medallion (for sure not destroyed by Regulus but still somewhere in the house) and Helga’s cup - and maybe Nagini as such was Dumbledore’s suggestion and he is never wrong - the rest seems hardly probable.
    As for Harry - well, clear, cannot be. No living person apart from Nagini, that’s quite clear from the book. The hat option has been denied by JRK. Even the mirror=ravenclaw theory - since the mirror was used in HP1 and did not help LV at all, am sure it would have had it been containing a bit of his soul inside! Still JRK promised she would not be introducing new things/characters so must be something we already know about. The cup Riddle won, for example, could be an option. And, after all, the Gryffindor sword. If we presume that LV killed someone just before entering in for the job interview with Dumbledore could he transfer his soul to the sword right under Dumbledore’s nose? He could speak out a spell without being heard, surely. And in Dumbledore’s office his horcrux is of course then best protected.

19. jane said,

    February 11, 2006 at 3:03 pm

    PS Grindelwald = Hitler. Confirmed by a hint in a JRK interview. So it was not a suicide, Hitler was killed by Dumbledore )

20. RavenclawWit said,

    February 11, 2006 at 3:32 pm

    Actually, JKR has not said that Harry isn’t a horcrux. The only thing she has confirmed as not being a horcrux is the Sorting Hat. Also Grindelwald is not Hitler. What JKR actually implied was that the reign of Grindelwald and the rise of the muggle Hitler and WWII were related, not that they were the same person.

21. RavenclawWit said,

    February 11, 2006 at 3:37 pm

    Oh and to the person above who said that RavenclawWit was a “smart guy”. Um thanks, but actually, I’m a smart girl.

22. jane said,

    February 11, 2006 at 4:00 pm

    i thought she did say somewhere to the question whether ginnie was a horcrux “no, and neither is harry”. won’t insist though. i just think that if harry were a horcrux he only could kill lv by killing himself, too, and the prophecy says that one of them must die (not two).

23. RavenclawWit said,

    February 12, 2006 at 3:39 am

    I’m just about 100% positive she hasn’t made any statement pertaining to Harry being or not being a horcrux. Also the prophecy does not say that only one must die. It says that “either must die at the hand of the other for neither can live while the other survives…” This is probably the most confusing statement made in the Potter series. It’s a bit wordy and hard to understand. But the word either, does not preclude both. It simply means that Harry will kill Voldemort or Voldemort will kill Harry. But this does not exclude the possibility that they may kill each other. However, I think it’s wrong to assume that Harry must die if he is a horcrux. I used to think the same thing, but I’m not sure why. Dumbledore obviously was successful in making Marvolo’s ring no longer a horcrux, but the ring was not destroyed, in fact Dumbledore started wearing it after that! (I’ve always thought that was weird, by the way) Also, since I wrote this post, I’ve given a lot more consideration to the idea that Harry’s scar is a horcrux rather than Harry himself. I’m beginning to think that is the more likely possibility. If that’s the case, it seems like Harry wouldn’t have to die, he would just have to find some way of making his scar not a horcrux.

24. jane said,

    February 13, 2006 at 12:46 pm

    hi hi, the ring was cracked, wasnt it… scar, yes, i have been thinking about it too… but how does one make a dementor kiss the scar? without him going after the real soul as well? though of course it would be nice to have a horcrux so close at hand, practical for harry et al., but still somehow stupid of LV: even if he does not feel when a horcrux is destroyed he must know when one is created, and, incidental or not, he would know what harry is and would not try to kill him so many times… on the other hand, he stopped trying to kill him lately, and draco had the task of killing only dumbledore, not harry, which would have been a much easier thing to do… ah, all so confusing!..

25. jane said,

    February 13, 2006 at 2:02 pm

    To summarize the horcruxes - the 6 since Voldemort himself hosts 1/7th of his soul still.
    The four are undoubtable
    1) Tom Riddle’s Diary
    2) Marvolo’s Ring
    3) Slytherin’s Locket
    4) Hufflepuff’s Cup
    if we say that
    6) Harry’s Scar
    we are left with still unknown no. 5)
    I previously said that Dumbledore must be right saying it should be Nagini but Dumbledore was speaking about no. 6, not 5 (Gryffindor’s or Ravenclaw’s object, according to AD). And then he does not have to be always right. If we take Harry to be a “Gryffindor’s object” (think it is quite clear that Harry is the heir, Fan’s post above, and JKR saying “maybe”) it could well be that no. 5 is something Ravenclawish, and Nagini is just an evil pet snake. “She underlies the Slytherin connection” says AD but this would be unnecessary for LV collection since he already has the locket.

26. jane said,

    February 14, 2006 at 9:46 am

    By the way I read recently somewhere a suggestion that could support the Harry/Scar theory: it is sort of generally accepted (Dumbledore says it and probably is right) that LV wanted to use Harry’s death for creating a new Horcrux. So the question is still there, what was the object he had in mind? Whether the Horcrux spell has to be issued before, or after killing (Michael’s point), he must have had some (Gryffindor?) object in mind. The suggestion was - shocking as it is - Harry’s own skull. LV’s love for skulls is well known (the mark), presuming as he was that Harry would die there would be a skull left, so could be. And it would be a nice trophey to keep, too.
    In this case Lily’s unplanned death might have unwillingly triggered the magic which ended up where it was supposed to end - in Harry’s skull - only without Harry being dead, thus all the mess.
    If we only knew how the horcruxes are created… To me it seems that the magic could consist of two parts/spells: 1. preparation of the vessel before the killing 2. filling the vessel with the soul bit once it has split i.e. after the killing (so far I guess there has been a debate whether it is a before or after spell, well, why not both?)

27. RavenclawWit said,

    February 14, 2006 at 12:13 pm

    Oooh, creepy and gruesome, but plausible. Voldemort cetainly does have a penchant for skulls. *shivers*.

28. Traci said,

    September 18, 2006 at 11:53 pm

    I have read through most of this and I realize this discussion may be long dead. However, I thought of this idea tonight and thought I would share.

    During GoF, Harry tells DD that LV used HP’s blood to resurrect himself. DD had a look of triumph in his eyes and then it went away, but HP did notice it. This idea may have been said already and if so, I apologize. I tried to read everything but ended up skimming some of it.

    What if Harry was, indeed, the final horcrux and when LV used HP’s blood to resurrect himself, he somehow took the power of that horcrux back into himself? I think LV may have destroyed one of his own horcruxes but had no clue. DD says that LV would probably not realize when the ring had been destroyed since his soul had been spilt for so long.

    In sum: I think the horcrux curse that was within HP was destroyed or cancelled out when LV used HP’s blood to resurrect.

    They hint that blood is very magical and powerful when used in potions. I cannot think of the exact quote/book, but I believe Hermione says something along those lines. Perhaps the horcrux curse is another example of “Old” magic (ex: Lily dying for Harry) and depends upon the blood of the murdered person.

    I dunno, I just think this is something that Jo would totally write. It’s twisted enough to be a plausible idea, even if it’s not fully supported with strong evidence beyond some vague mention of blood and “triumphant gleam” in DD’s eyes.

29. Chris said,

    November 28, 2006 at 6:36 am

    ryte
    heres my theory
    I also believe harry is a hurcrux for most of the reasons originally mentioned in the original post. here goes:
    1 - Riddles Diary (Destroyed)
    2 - The ring (Destroyed)
    3 - Voldemort himself

    now there is four left from each house
    Slytherin - The locket with the S on found at Sirius’s house
    Hufflepuff - The goblet
    Ravenclaw - ????
    Gryfindor - HARRY!!!

    if your remember, harrys parents lived at GODRICS hollow! The first name of the founder of the hosue. Harry is in gryfindor house and pulled the sword out of the hat! Perhaps he wasnt meant to be the horcrux but the person killed to produce the horcrux in somthing else, but voldemort killed lily first and then as the horcrux spell worked it over-rided the killing curse voldemort used on harry! Therefore harry become the horcrux.

    This way harry has to die in the end to save the wizarding world! And therfore JKR stops anybody else being able to carry on her creation or anybody pestering her for another harry potter book

    the end