11.18.05
Professor Snape - Evil Jerk or Secret Agent?
SO I was re-reading Book 6 the other day and was left with one lingering question. I am still convinced the intentional horcrux theory is wrong (as all arguments can be debunked in the text), and Harry will need to find 3 horcruxes and destroy them before killing Nagini and Voldemort. HE will go back to the Dursley’s, to the Weasley’s for the wedding and to Godric’s Hollow to see his parents grave. This much I am certain of.
What still is raising a lingering question in my mind is Professor Snape. Did he do his heel turn (to steal a wrestling phrase) or is he still a good guy, pretending to be bad? Did he murder Dumbledore or did he follow Dumbledore’s orders to save his own life AND to save Draco?
I keep tossing back and forth on this and can’t find the answers. It is obvious that IF Dumbledore did order Snape to kill him, then he didn’t inform McGonagall, Lupin or any of the rest of the OotP. Draco says Snape tried to stop him based on his vow; Dumbledore says that Snape tried to stop him on his orders. It was unclear if Dumbledore knew about the vow.
This has driven me nuts… I think mainly because I want it to be that Snape DIDN’T betray the Order. It makes a more interesting plot point and, frankly, I like Snape and want to think of Dumbledore’s sacrifice as noble rather than as murder… given Dumbledore’s greatness. At this point I am torn.
I have also reconsidered my position on whether Dumbledore is dead. I still lean towards he is, BUT now I am open to him not being. Given that he tells Draco we can make it look like you are dead and hide you, etc., that may be what happened to Dumbledore. Somehow it fooled the Headmaster’s office into thinking him dead, since the picture is in place. I still doubt it, but why mention it unless you are going to use it. At this point, I still lean toward him being dead and maybe Regulus actually being alive… having been hidden in the way Dumbledore said; maybe if Dumbledore is Dead; much like Grimwauld Place, Regulus will not be hidden. Either way, I think SOMETHING will appear in the 7th book about someone who was thought to be dead, actually being alive.
Anyway, what are your thoughts. I am curious… Is Snape Evil or still on the side of Good? Is Dumbledore Dead or Alive? Is Regulus Dead or Alive? I would love to hear your theories.
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RavenclawWit said,
November 18, 2005 at 4:50 pm
I feel mainly as you do. While I do pretty much think that Dumbledore is dead, I am open to the very faint possibility that he’s not. Even more so, I think it could be very probable that Dumbledore is dead, but that he had prearranged this with Snape.
Also, I love your theory about Regulus. I hadn’t before applied the whole “we can hide you, make you appear to be dead” thing to Regulus. Most people use it as evidence that Dumbledore may not be dead. But it applying to Regulus is a good point. One questions why, if this were true, Sirius didn’t know that his brother was alive, since it seems like Dumbledore might have told him. But then again, we know there was some bad blood between them, and Dumbledore might have been unsure of Sirius’ reaction to learning that his once Death-Eater brother was still alive.
Michael said,
November 18, 2005 at 5:58 pm
I thought the Regulus thing would be pretty cool. Kind of CIA-esque. I just came up with it when I was re-reading the book again.
The Sirius question came to my mind too. If Regulus was hidden, I can think of two answers. 1) Sirius knew and didn’t tell anyone to keep him hidden. 2) Dumbledore wanted to make sure Regulus could not be found out, so HE was the only one who knew Regulus was alive. He (Regulus) may have tipped Dumbledore onto the Horcrux thing first and it was confirmed by the Diary. Afterall, do we ever find out in Book 6 (and i am being lazy and not looking it up right now) WHY dumbledore first goes on the Horcrux theory?
Was it the Diary or did he have another tipoff.
It is good speculation.. I would love to see Harry’s surprise that Regulus is alive. Afterall, Slughorn was hiding as a chair…
Guru said,
November 18, 2005 at 7:44 pm
I think that Dumbledore is dead and that Snape was just obeying orders.
I think when Dumbledore says “Please, Severus”, he is asking Severus to kill him, as they had probably spoken about in the past.
I think that Regulus is alive, as I believe that he is the RAB in the locket.
Somebody said,
November 21, 2005 at 5:16 pm
This is all pretty interesting, but at the moment I don’t really know what to think. While nobody was happy that Dumbledore died, I loved the fact that Snape was a bad guy. He’ll be hard to forgive after the hatred I felt for him. On thing I’m surprised I never read anywhere -probably because I haven’t looked in enough places- is Dumbledore having a Horcrux…though I think Horcruxes have a lot of evil properties. The whole Regulus Black theory is pretty interesting. Being Sirius’s brother, Harry could mistake them and get his hopes up. But we don’t know yet
Somebody said,
November 21, 2005 at 5:25 pm
Okay I just found something else from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regulus_Black …….here’s what it says
***************************************************************
Near the end of Harry Potter and the Half-Blood Prince, Dumbledore attempts to recover a locket believed to be a Horcrux created by Voldemort. Instead, he finds a different locket containing a message signed with the initials R.A.B.. Some have interpreted this as Regulus A. Black. It is not known for certain what Regulus’ second name might be, but nothing is known to contradict its beginning with ‘A’. Rowling was asked in an interview whether Regulus was R.A.B., and called this theory “a fine guess” However, she did not intend her reply either to confirm or deny the guess. [1]
During the attempt to retrieve the locket with Harry’s assistance, Dumbledore points out that the task could not be achieved by one alone. If it was Regulus Black, after turning against Voldemort once he realised how evil he really was, who replaced the Horcrux with the fake locket that Dumbledore found, presumably he had assistance. It is indicated earlier in Harry Potter and the Half-Blood Prince that Regulus only survived a few days after Voldemort realised he had turned against him.
The note suggests that the original locket would have been either destroyed or hidden away. Chapter 6 of Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix mentions a heavy, unopenable locket in a glass case in the drawing room at 12 Grimmauld Place, the Black family home. Sirius Black was at that time clearing the house, and the locket was consigned to be thrown away. However, his house-elf Kreacher was rescuing items for himself, and Mundungus Fletcher was taking items to sell. In Half-Blood Prince, Mundungus is seen with articles taken from the house, and in the company of the barman from the Hog’s Head. J.K. Rowling confirmed that the barman is Dumbledore’s brother Aberforth. Aberforth was described as drawing his cloak about his throat as he walked away from the scene. It is possible that he now has the locket.
In the Dutch translations of the books, Sirius Black is called ‘Sirius Zwarts’. In The Half Blood Prince, which translation came in bookstores in the Netherlands on November 19th, 2005, R.A.B. is translated as R.A.Z.
*********************************************************
Did you catch that??? Sirius Zwarts and R.A.Z. Quite the coincidence eh? Seems we’re getting closer.
Somebody said,
November 21, 2005 at 5:59 pm
Oh, I forgot, you have to kill someone to make a Horcrux. Scratch my Dumbledore thought. Sorry about all the posts.
Michael said,
November 21, 2005 at 6:37 pm
I was going to point out the killing thing to you. Plus, Dumbledore isn’t afraid of death and it seems that only a person afraid of dying would create a horcrux. Also, his comment in Book 1 about how the two things people want more than anything are immortality and riches and how these are the two very worst things they could want to me kills the horcrux theory too. I have seen the theory put forth on other sites though… so you aren’t the only one who toyed with it.
I hadn’t heard the Dutch translation thing… Yeah, now I am 100% convinced it is a Black and I am 99.99 its Regulus.
THe thought I have heard about Regulus’s helper in getting the locket is Kreacher. If Regulus is dead (and I am pretty sure he is… I just think him actually being alive would be a great plot twist) then Harry would probably get the info he needs from Kreacher. In fact, I could envision a scenario where it was Kreacher that ratted out Regulus to Beatrix or another Deatheater. Maybe Reg told him no0t to speak about the Horcrux, but forgot to tell him not to mention betrayal, etc.
rpg007 said,
November 24, 2005 at 12:49 am
here’s my theory.
Snape is indeed evil. No one can resist Voldemort and once a death-eater always a death eater- it seems pretty clear.
Neither Dumbledore nor Sirius black was killed as we were led to believe, but Sirius Black is dead now. What has happened is that Sirius’s death was fake. He then took it upon himself to protect the Order (in his own way) by drinking the polyjuice potion pretending to be Dumbledore. Snape then actually killed who he thought was Dumbledore but was actually Sirius. Dumbledore himself would never plead for his life or behave as he did while this is completely in line with Sirius’s attitude. Dumbledore likely does not know this has happened as it was Sirius’s goal to demonstrate that Snape could not be trusted (and indeed he was correct). Now they’re in a real mess as Dumbledore did belive in Snape (Snape is good at occulmency, so perhaps D-dore couldn’t tell) and the dark lord knows what snape knows.
Fatoo said,
November 28, 2005 at 4:05 pm
Hi… my question is if Regalus is supposedly alive then how does Harry have possession over Grimauld Place? It automatically passes through the Black family and WOULD have gone to Regalus if he hadn’t already been dead. Unless… Regalus is alive and he told Dumbledore to give the house to Harry. But then what would be the point of testing that theory as soon as he saw Harry at the beginning of HBP?
Sorry.. I was on a roll but then I started confusing myself. So, yeah, I think Regalus is dead. And I think JK will have broken my brain if she brings somebody back to life.
RavenclawWit said,
November 28, 2005 at 5:39 pm
Fatoo, that question just occured to me, as well. However, when Dumbledore showed up at the Dursley’s in book 6 to give Harry his inheritance, Bellatrix was the most direct living descendant, and DD worried that the house and Kreacher could not be transferred to Harry because of this. But he performed a simple test to determine whether this was true. Harry gave Kreacher an order, and Kreacher was compelled to follow it. So apparently, Sirius willing the house to Harry overrides any family claim. So, in short, I think it’s entirely possible that Regulus is alive and yet the house belongs to Harry. Here’s something we haven’t considered and I’m not sure why. If Regulus is alive, who ever said that Dumbledore even knows about it? I know DD gives the whole “we can hide you, fake your death” speech, but maybe that was just to let us know that it is possible to fake a death in the wizarding world. Maybe Regulus faked his own death.
Michael said,
November 28, 2005 at 7:12 pm
That is a good point RCW. I guess I just have gotten the DUMBLEDORE KNOWS ALL except when it comes to trusting people mentality. Maybe Regulus could have faked it. It would be a cool twist either way.
RavenclawWit said,
November 28, 2005 at 8:55 pm
Well, I’ve got that mentality too. I hadn’t considered that DD didn’t know about Regulus being alive until I posted that comment. But now that I think about it, what Fatoo said is logical. If Dumbledore knew Regulus was still alive, he wouldn’t have bothered with the Kreacher test, because he would know already that a) the house belonged to Regulus and b) he would just have to ask Regulus if Harry could have the house. So if Regulus is alive, it seems pretty clear that Dumbledore didn’t know about it.
Hmm…but wait a sec, actually no. If like I said before Sirius’ will overrides family claims, then it wouldn’t matter whether it was Bellatrix or Regulus. So Dumbledore might have known Regulus was alive, but he just told Harry that it was Bellatrix he was worried about. For reasons only known to himself, he might not want Harry to know about Regulus. He did the Kreacher test to confirm that Harry was the rightful owner instead of Regulus, not Bellatrix. Wow, I just completely changed my own mind in the space of about 60 seconds. I guess only time and book 7 will tell.
Tom said,
December 4, 2005 at 6:48 pm
I have just finished re-reading the whole series so far. Here are a few iedas that I have come up with. Now some of them may be way off the mark, and if they are can you let me know (gently) why it can’t be so.
First off, Snape and Dumbledore are in on something together. This has been talked to death but there’s something that no-one has yet mentioned. In GoF, when Harry gets back from fighting Voldemort (No I’m not afraid to say his name) Dumbledore gives a bunch of people orders. He tells Snape that he has to go and put into motion part of a plan. No-one else is in on this and no-one even thinks to question Dumbledore’s orders. We find out in HBP, (Spinner’s End) that Snape did return to Voldemort after he called the Death Eaters to him in GoF. We know in the GoF that Snape didn’t return to him, but in HBP he tells Bellatrix and Narcissa that he turned up two hours later, his reason being that he couldn’t run away from Hogwarts straight away otherwise everyone would know that he was still a Death Eater. Now my theory is centering around this. Dumbledore orders Snape what to do. Dumbledore and Snape have made a plan a long time ago - maybe at about the time when Snape was allowed to return as a teacher to Hogwarts? In the HBP when Snape kills Dumbledore there’s all sorts of things wrong: The Avra Kadavra curse, just makes people drop dead (Diggory, Frank?- the old dude in GoF) with their eyes open (the entire Riddle family in GoF) Dumbledore does neither He falls over the wall and his eyes are closed. Right that theory has been blogged to death, now I will go on. Dumbledore needs to make Voldemort think that he is dead. There is no way Dumbledore could share this secret with anyone. Dumbledore needs the whole world to think that he is dead. Snape is a classic double agent. By devoting the whole of Spinners End to the revelation that Snape does still work for Voldemort? JK would not make it that obvious. Not even Harry is allowed to know that Dumbledore is alive because in Book 7, thats when Dumbledore is going to be able to sneak up on Voldemort. The only one Voldemort ever feared was Dumbledore, he is now dead. Snape will tell him and no matter how good a Legilimens Voldemort is, Snape is going to be an outstanding Occlumens.
Dumbledore has NEVER revealed why he trusts Snape, why not? Each book Dumbledore has revealed more and more to Harry about his past and future but this is ALWAYS the one thing he holds back on. Why? Not even Harry is allowed to know the truth. This is the reason why, Snape and Dumbledore have come up with this plan to defeat Voldemort while everyone thinks that Dumbledore is dead. Ok, so the books are about HP and how he is going to finish Voldemort, but he is going to have a hell of a lot of help from Dumbledore.
Ok, there’s nothing really new here. I have pretty much stated the same as what most intelligent people think, but how about this: Is it possible for Harry to be a Horcrux? (Someone has to die in order to make one - Lily and James) It would explain the scar hurting and Voldemort and Harry being linked by something. And.. crucially… Neither can survive while the other one lives. Its a pretty whacked out theory and I’m sure there’s a bunch of you out there that will laugh for this one. Tell me why not.
lionjohn said,
December 4, 2005 at 7:47 pm
what if Harry is the sixth horcruxes! page 473
you can use animals as horuxes? inadvisable as they can think and move for its self
Dumbledore calculations suspected that voldemort was at least one horcrux short of his goal of six when he entered harry parents house.
Michael said,
December 4, 2005 at 10:50 pm
Lionjohn - Maybe you should check the archives… this has been discussed actually (I am STRONGLY against that theory), but is a bit off topic for this comment.
Tom - Just to comment as you ask:
Snape and Dumbledore being in on something together - Definately a possibility… it is actually the discussion point of this post. I can definately agree about that. However, the statement about the Avada kedavra curse to me is reading too much into things. Honestly, there never really was a full description of what happens when AV is cast. With Frank the old man, it says he was dead before he hit the floor. With Cedric, Harry’s eyes were closed. We the reader never TRULY see what happens when one is hit with the curse. And I do want to mention that the spider that Moody killed did skid on the desk. The curse is accompanied by a rushing sound so some force could accompany the spell. PLUS, remember in 6 Dumbledore is RIGHT on the Rampart of the tower. The equivalent would be you sitting on a window sill… it wouldn’t take too much force to send you over the sill. In other words, Dumbledore didn’t get knockedback 6 feet or something; he was propping himself against the wall by the rampart. And it could also make a difference based on the power of the Wizard, or how much force of will is behind the spell (based on Bella’s comment at the end of Book 5).
Could I be wrong on this and there is a difference with the spells? Yes, definately… But JK has made continuity errors in the book in the past and frankly, I think that people are reading too much into the spell text.
Given the prophecy, I still think Harry will be the cause of LVs death.
On the horcrux, check the archives. I posted extensively in the comments on why LV did not make Harry an intentional horcrux. I attempt to debunk the unintentional horcrux theory championed by ravenclawwit, BUT I cannot do it completely in the text… I think the intentional theory has been pretty much debunked, but there will be those who disagree.
As far as the reason for trusting Snape, I am not sure. I think maybe that Snape made an unbreakable vow with Dumbledore, but ultimately there was a loophole that he was able to exploit with Narcissa’s vow, if Snape is a traitor for real. I think Dumbledore is dead, but I do agree with you he will receive lots of help from him. Dumbledore’s picture will play a part, as will his brother (the bartender at the Hog’s Head - JK confirmed this is AD’s Brother), and probably Fawkes.
You have some interesting points though. Keep on bringing them.
Tom said,
December 6, 2005 at 5:29 am
Ok lets forget about ‘clues’ that are in the text, and just think ahout the whole whodunnit genre. The key to good murder mystery novels from William Shakespeare to Agatha Christie is they deliberately use one character throughout the book(s) that is dodgy, cunning, crafty - who you are not meant to like, then at the end you find out that the culprit is someone completely unexpected. The pattern started in SS when Harry’s scra burns as soon as he sees SNape at his first dinner. From then on in the book Snape is made to look and behave suspect. AT the end he saves Harry. Just another example and you can see how JK does it to Karkaroff in GofF. Now multiply this pattern by 7 and for 7 books, and right up until the end we’re going to think Snape ‘dunnit’. Nope, its going to be someone else. I’ve seen McGonnogal’s name bantered somewhere, but the reason’s given are too flimsy. We do know that both Hagrid and Slughorn were at Hogwarts with Riddle… they know alot more than they’ve let on….
Nicole said,
December 9, 2005 at 6:27 pm
Ok, ok, you all have some wonderful theories here. First off, I would like to say that Harry as a sixth horcrux I completely disagree with. First, why would Voldemort make Harry a horcrux and then try to kill him? Complete waste of his soul. Second, Voldemort did try to posses Harry at the Ministry in book 5, but found out he could not because of extreme pain. Voldemort, as Dumbledore says in book 6, does not realize the power of a whole, untarnished soul, as Harry has. Untarnished, as in not encased with horcrux.
As far as Snape being evil, I have no clue. It seems unlike a good writer of our time to make it as obvious as it is in book 6 that he is evil. I tend to lean towards him NOT being evil just because of that fact. But honestly, there are too many points on either side to determine that until Book 7 comes out. However, I find the most convincing two points for me are first, the fact that Dumbledore was not shocked in death. Almost every other victim of the killing curse we have witnessed; Cedric, the Riddles, Frank Bryce, have been screaming, slightly suprised, or had a look of terror on their faces. True, Dumbledore said “to the well organized mind, death is but the next big adventure” or something of that sort. However, if Snape was finally turning on him, wouldn’t he have been a little bit more shocked rather than have a look on his face as if he were sleeping?
Secondly, Dumbledore KNEW of Malfoy’s plan. Dumbledore says to Draco “I did not dare speak to you of the mission with which I knew you had been entrusted, in case [Voldemort] used Legilmency against you” (Book 6, pg 591). How did Dumbledore learn of this plan? It seems that the Death Eaters themselves are sparse in knowing the plan. Snape knows, Bellatix knows, Narcissa knows, but who out of those three is most likely to tell Dumbledore? The double agent, of course! However, there are still holes in both these theories which I am sure can be argued to death. But that is my input.
LASTLY (I promise) there has been some speculation about why Snape was refused the DADA job all these years. Dumbledore admits to turning down Voldemort for the job, proved with a memory in the Pensieve in Book 6. He also admits that ever since he turned down Voldemort, he has not been able to keep a DADA teacher for more than a year. So why did he refuse Snape the job? Because he knew the job was cursed and he did not want to lose Snape for future plans. Again, I am sure it can be agrued, but I’m just giving the masses something to ponder…feel free to argue, I love to aruge about Harry Potter theories.
Michael said,
December 10, 2005 at 10:06 am
Pretty Good Nicole. I like a lot of your theories. The look on Dumbledore’s face is something I never thought of.. very interesting. Great Points.
RavenclawWit said,
December 10, 2005 at 10:18 pm
I think the best point you make, Nicole, is about Dumbledore giving Snape the DADA job. Clearly, Dumbledore knows the job is cursed (he tells Harry as much in HBP) so why would he give Snape that job unless he had planned for Snape to leave Hogwart’s anyways for some purpose? The more I think about it, the more convinced I become that Snape is not evil after all, and that both Dumbledore’s death (if he is dead) and Snape’s exit from Hogwart’s were long planned. Could this in fact be what Snape and Dumbledore were arguing about? Maybe Snape wasn’t so keen to leave Hogwart’s especially if it’s to protect someone he hates (Harry).
Nicole said,
December 13, 2005 at 8:58 pm
I think we’re on the right track, RavenclawWit. I’ve also been thinking that something had to happen to Dumbledore to get him out of the picture. Remember the part before he drinks the potion when he says that Voldemort’s intention was not to kill the drinker right away, but to weaken him immensely so he could find out how and why the drinker got to the horcrux. I think Dumbledore’s death (or staged death) had to happen to Voldemort wouldn’t go searching for him and be able to overcome him and find out that he is not the only one who knows of his horcruxes. After all, that is one of the only advantages Harry has right now.
Also, I just re-read the 5th book, more for reading between the lines and trying to get some more info on the Snape evil/not evil debate. I think the whole situation with Sirius near the end of the book gives the “Snape is evil” argument something to debate further. Dumbledore says that Snape, after hearing Harry’s cryptic message of “He’s got Padfoot at the place where it’s hidden!” sprang into action and notified the Order, then went and looked for Harry. He also called in on Sirius himself to see that he was all right. So why would he do all that if he really wasn’t on Dumbledore’s side? The same old argument that Snape did it to remain a faithful spy for Voldemort and kept Dumbledore’s trust. But why would Snape voluntarily go make sure that Sirius, a person he loathed almost as much as Harry, was all right? He didn’t have to do it. He didn’t have to go look for Harry. He could have Told Dumbledore that he had no clue what Harry was talking about and left it at that, and by doing so, would have made it very easy for the Death Eaters to get the Prophecy. Just another thought…
I don’t know what I’ll do once the 7th book comes out and there are no more holes in the story to argue about.
RavenclawWit said,
December 13, 2005 at 9:26 pm
Snape is definitely one of the most interesting characters in the entire series. To be honest, I really have no idea whether he’s bad or good! Is J.K. Rowling a genius or what? Do you listen to Mugglecast? That’s the MuggleNet podcast. Anyways, this week they were talking about Snape and someone mentioned that JKR has always compared him to a spider. For instance, in HBP we find out that he lives at “Spinner’s End”. That would seem to suggest that he is evil. Because in that chapter he tells Bellatrix why and how he has gotten Dumbledore to trust him all these years and how he’s really loyal to Voldemort. So basically, we’re seeing the end of his spun web of lies and deceit. Also, spiders in the series are portrayed as treacherous. For instance, when Aragog dies, his children turn on Hagrid. Here’s something else. In Goblet of Fire, when Harry faces the sphinx in the third task, she gives him a riddle, the first part of which goes like this:
“First think of the person who lives in disguise,
Who deals in secrets and tells naught but lies.”
The answer to the riddle turns out to be “spider”. The association of a spider with a spy is unmistakeable. Only time will tell whether Snape really is good or evil, but it’s really interesting speculation in the meantime.
Michael said,
December 13, 2005 at 9:46 pm
Nicole - I would actually say that Snape hates Sirius more than Harry, which would give even greater support to your points.
RavenClawWit - Um, I think you are reading too much into the poem from book 4. The whole point of the riddle was like a verbal form of Classic Concentration. The SPY, was of course the first syllable of Spider. THe second Part was The Middle of Middle and the End of End… Of course that is the letter D (Since the D’s are in the middle of the word middle and at the end of the word END) and of course the third syllable is Err… Parells of Snape with a Spider are one thing, but truthfully, how else are you going to get the first syllable of Spider.
RavenclawWit said,
December 13, 2005 at 11:29 pm
Michael,
Actually, it wasn’t my theory, as I stated it came from Mugglecast. But there are other instances where Rowling describes Snape as a spider for instance, OotP, American paperback edition, pg. 643, where Harry is seeing Snape’s worst memory in the pensieve, it describes Snape thus:
“Round-shouldered yet angular, he walked in a twitchy manner that recalled a spider, his oily hair swinging about his face.”
As far as the moment in GoF, yes spy is the sound of the first syllable in spider, but why have the riddle be about a spider at all? There was no spider in the maze. I’m simply theorizing that Rowling may be trying to get us to think a certain way about spiders and by extension, Snape.
Nicole said,
December 14, 2005 at 3:51 am
I thought there was a spider in the maze…isn’t that how Cedric and Harry end up choosing to take the Cup together because Cedric doesn’t see the gigantic spider and Harry warns him…then they beat it together? But yes, that is an interesting take on Snape. He always did seem like a spider to me, one way or another he’s spinning a web of lies to either Dumbledore or Voldemort. I remember in one of the books, I think in Book 5, that he says something to Harry in his first Occlumency lesson like if someone was applying the right amount of legilmency that they could hoodwink Voldemort. Interesting to think that Snape could do that. I’ve re-read the whole series a lot, and there are a lot of mentions about Harry feeling that Snape can read minds. He must be a very accomplished Occlumens and Legilmens. But then again, he does point out to Bella in the 6th book that Voldemort is the world’s most accomplished Legilmens. So how is he doing it if he is true to the Order? Weird. Then again, Harry’s suspected Dumbledore and Lupin of being able to read minds too. I just read him saying that of Lupin about ten minutes ago in the Prisoner of Azkaban. Interesting thing, Occlumency. I think we’ve not seen the end of it. Remember Snape telling Harry that he couldn’t attack him until he learned to keep his mouth and mind closed? He’ll need that to get rid of Voldemort too.
You know what’s been bothering me? Ever since the introduction of non-verbal spells, I’ve been wondering why Voldemort, in his many incounters with Harry, especially the one in the Goblet of Fire and the Order of the Phoenix, why he didn’t use non-verbal spells to get rid of Harry. It would have been much easier. I’m not really making a theory here, just throwing out my Harry musings so they don’t keep mulling in my mind. Thanks for putting up with my e-Pensieve.
Michael said,
December 14, 2005 at 10:09 am
I haven’t seen the GOF movie so maybe they cut it which would be a shame as it was pretty cool, but you seem to have forgotten the moments after Harry passed the spinx until he and cedric took the cup. Harry and Cedric running to the cup… THE BIG SPIDER coming out (Yes I have wondered if it was an acromantula as well… I have to assume no since they would try to eat Harry and Hagrid would get in trouble unless they brought it in from Borneo… so I was thinking it was some sort of spider that was made bigger through magic, much in the same way that Moody made the Cruciatus spider bigger in class… either way… 8 legs and furry insect… still a spider) and going after Harry… Harry distracting it and being grabbed by his leg, him using the Disarming charm and being dropped, further messing up his leg, and then both Cedric and Harry able to stun it at the same time… SO yes, a spider plays a big role in the Maze in GOF… otherwise, without that to distract the sprint to the end, just Cedric would have been ported away.
While Snape might be compared to a spider (a fairly good metaphor for him), I would say that Mugglecast is reading a bit too much into that GOF moment and the riddle… much like the people who read too much into the order of Harry’s Parents dying in the American VErsion of GOF (based on the order they came out of the wand) when it came out… It turned out to just be an error… I am not sure if it is corrected in the newer American Copies, but I know the book on tape has the correct order. I mean are they also going to say the Spiders in Book two were running from the Basilisk and hiding in Snape’s room?
Ok enough ridiculing the Mugglecast theory…
In regards to Nicole’s thing on the Non verbal spells, I was having similiar thoughts. The only thing I can think of is that the unforgivable curses have to be said allowed. I think of Bella’s statement that you have to REALLY want to cause pain (so extended from that want to kill or control someone’s freewill), so maybe it is like the safety on a gun… you have to say it out loud to prevent accidental killing. Just a guess… But that does rais the point… surely there are other curses that can Screw up and kill people… I mean, to me it didn’t sound like Bella killed Sirius with Avada Kedavra… so we know it is possible.
Maybe LV just likes the AK curse… I wondered that as well though.
And in regards to the Mind shut mouth shut statement, that is the main thing giving me hope Snape killed Dumbledore on Dumbledore’s orders (besides a good plot twist)… Seems like good advice not to give your boss’s enemy.
Nicole said,
December 14, 2005 at 4:01 pm
Sirius died because he fell through the arc, right? Bella did put a curse on him, but if he wouldn’t have fallen through that veil, I am sure he would have lived. Anyway, I’m all out on the Snape argument right now, but that’s not for long, I am sure…:)
Nicole said,
December 14, 2005 at 4:02 pm
P.S. I think that theory on nvbl spells is good, Michael!
RavenclawWit said,
December 14, 2005 at 5:20 pm
Yeah, my bad. There was a spider in the maze. But I still think you’re missing my point. My point isn’t that the spider riddle is explicitly referring to Snape. Rather that Rowling is trying to make us think of spiders as untrustworthy, and by describing Snape as a spider, she’s trying to get us to see him as untrustworthy. But I guess we can agree to disagree.
Michael said,
December 14, 2005 at 6:45 pm
I see your point… I was just saying that the SPY with Spider riddle and then that linking to snape was a stretch.
Saying that spiders being untrustworthy is a metaphor for Snape is a valid possibility. If there is a connection between the spider symbolisma nd snape, then it could also be that Spiders are complex web spinners which snape is as well… Or it is the nature of spiders to do what they do, which the same could be said for snape… despite his efforts, he has to be who he is.
Nicole’s comment on Sirius though still makes me wonder about Snape… Too me this is the most complex question leading into Book 7, even more than the Horcruxes which could be straight forward (the items Dumbledore mentioned) or something else (the Harry is a Horcrux theory), the relationship between Harry and Snape has been a great Arc throughout the series… equaled only by the Relationship of the kids. I actually find it more fascinating than the Kid friendship arcs or any of the other… LV and Harry, Dumbledore and Harry, or Hagrid and Harry. Snape to me is one of the best characters in the series… probably equal to me in enjoyment as Harry is. He is so complex and the tidbits of the backstory have made him fascinating. I can think of many different ways that the story can go… He really was Evil all along and tries to kill Harry, He really was evil and tries to take over from LV, He was good and it is all an act and he kills Nagini allowing Harry to kill LV, He was good and shows his true allegiance in the final fight with LV… OR my personal favorite… He actually did betray Dumbledore, but as he did when he told LV of the prophecy, he has a change of heart again and sacrifices himself to help Haryr defeat LV (I call this the Darth Vader ending). Regardless there are a 100 different ways… He really is one of the best characters in the series.
Nicole said,
December 20, 2005 at 12:20 am
Does anyone know a general date the 7th book will come out?
Per said,
December 29, 2005 at 1:03 pm
Nicole - I’m afraid we have to wait till the middle of 2007 to be able to solve all those riddles.
Jo said,
January 2, 2006 at 8:36 pm
Some of you have asked if Dumbledore has ever killed anyone. In book 1, it says on the back of the Dumbledore Chocolate Frog card that he is particularly famous for defeating the dark wizard Grindelwald in 1945. We do not know if “defeat” means that Dumbledore killed Grindelwald or if he merely stripped him of his powers, or just stopped him from doing bad things.
Michael said,
January 3, 2006 at 1:58 pm
I assume, Jo, your comment is in response to some of the chatter about Dumbledore creating a Horcrux (as far fetched an idea as it is). I would assume that Dumbledore has killed, but I would say Dumbledore hasn’t MURDERED. The books seem to make it clear that there is a real distinction between the too. Defending one self by killing obviously isn’t the same as what LV did to all his victims.
One other possibility.. is that YES, maybe AD doesn’t kill. He did tell LV during their Duel in 5 that he wouldn’t be satisfied with just killing LV… Although that could also be because of the Horcruxes as well.
casey said,
January 6, 2006 at 6:32 pm
I’ve just finished re-reading the 6th book today to see if I could pick up on anymore things to contribute to whether snape is evil or not…and I’m still pretty confused so I’ve been reading about what other people are saying and somethings are just WAY too farfetched but most are plausible.
My innitial thought about Snape killing Dumbledore was that he’s really just a coward. He was too afraid of dying himself (the consequence of breaking the unbreakable vow). But now I just have no idea.
I am completely against the idea that Harry is a horcrux, though it would in a way make sense. Part of Voldemort going into him, having to kill himself in order to kill Voldemort making himself brave and showing all of Gryffindors qualities etc. But I really just don’t like the idea and think that all the Horcruxes are acounted for.
Not until reading this page did it occur to me that Regulus might be alive…but I, like most people, believe him to be R.A.B.
Erm…completely lost my train of thought for a second…it should come back…Ok, well new thought…I don’t think Dumbledore has a Horcrux, or that he killed Grindelwald although I think that …justice was served? Ok well …you know how in the ministry Dumbledore tells Voldemort that there are worse things than death? (i really don’t know where i’m going here but it might be somewhere) well to Voldemort the worst thing IS death which is why ..in the end..he will (hopefully) be killed. But justice being served would be pain in suffering, which in Voldemort’s case is death but in Grindelwald’s case perhaps not. No idea if that made ANY sense. But as death is not something bad in Dumbledore’s eyes, I think that is why he died…and also that Harry needs to continue alone but perhaps receiving clues from unexpected people.
Ok so that may or may not have ANY useful content but i needed to let it out somewhere!
Araminta said,
January 20, 2006 at 11:52 pm
Hi, I’m slightly new here, but some of the comments sparked an idea theory and I’d like to know what you thought of it.
I personally am on the Snape-Isn’t-Evil bandwagon. And obviously, there are good points and bad points for both sides of the Snape is or isn’t evil debate. One of the major problems of the Snape-Isn’t-Evil theory is that to use an Unforgivable Curse, you have to mean it.
We find out that to use an Unforgivable Curse you have to mean it from Bellatrix after Harry tries to Crucio her at the DoM in OotP. We assume this information is right, because Harry can’t complete the spell because he doesn’t really want to hurt Bellatrix.
Snape used the Avada Kedavra on Dumbledore (assuming he’s really dead, which I’m not completely convinced of but for the purpose of this comment, he is). The AK is an Unforgivable curse, and if Bellatrix is right, you shouldn’t be able to use the AK without meaning it.
I’ve thought about this for a while, and to support my Snape-Isn’t-Evil theory, I’ve come up with two answers to explain how Snape could not be evil and still used the Avada Kedavra spell.
1.) The Avada Kedavra is different from the Crucio. To use the Crucio, you have to mean it, but to use the Avada Kedavra, you don’t.
This option doesn’t really make any sense at all. It would mean that the Magic decides that the torture (Crucio) is worse than death because you have to absolutely mean it to perform the torture but not to commit murder. That’s a bit off.
2.) We know Snape is a master Occlumens. He can hide his emotions, feelings, and memories from other people, called Leglimens. I’m proposing as my master theory here, that if you are an Occlumens, you can hide your feelings, your emotions from whatever determines if you really mean the Unforgivable curse. (This could be the magic inside of the person, the wand, or the curse itself.) Therefore, Snape could perform all of the curses without meaning them, because he could hide the fact that he didn’t really want to kill Dumbledore. It fits perfectly, and fits with why Harry couldn’t do the Crucio. He didn’t really want to hurt Bellatrix, and he couldn’t hide that fact from whatever decides it because he had not mastered Occlumency.
RavenclawWit said,
January 22, 2006 at 4:12 pm
That is an interesting theory. However, I don’t think we know enough about the nature of magic to know if it could be true or not. However, I am a little bit intrigued by your first suggestion that AK is different from Crucio. I think it may be more possible than you might think. Torturing someone is unbelievably cruel and you have to be a true sadist (like Bellatrix) to want to do such a thing. On the other hand, killing someone, while awful, can sometimes be legitimate or necessary. So maybe you can do the AK without being evil or really wanting to do it. Opens up a plethora of new possibilities really.
Michael said,
January 22, 2006 at 6:14 pm
Harry actually did do the curse; he wanted to cause Bella pain. It didn’t cause the pain that people like Bella and LV can cause, because Harry cast it in blind anger versus someone like LV or Bella whose desire is to inflict pain on there aversary. Its subtle, but is a major difference. DOn’t forget, the Unforgivable curses are terrible curses, but casting one does not make one evil. After all, as stated in Book 4, Crouch authorized the aurors to use the Unforgivable curses. Surely one would agree that these aurors weren’t evil.
Your theory is interesting, BUT Snape could easily cast AK without being evil. Knowing that if he didn’t kill Dumbledore he himself would die, and he would break his promise to Dumbledore, I have a feeling that he would mean it when he cast the spell.
GryffGirl said,
January 27, 2006 at 2:38 am
I don’t have my book on me right now, but I am pretty sure that Bellatrix says this in the OotP. She says that Harry’s righteous anger won’t hurt her for long and that he needs to want to cause her pain - and be happy about it. But Harry has too much of a heart to want to smile about her being in pain… maybe…
Well, anyway the fact of the matter is that you have to want to ENJOY hurting someone to do the crucio curse. Harry doesn’t have to be angry or really want to do it, he just has to enjoy it. That’s how i interpreted it
Michael said,
January 27, 2006 at 10:23 am
I would just point out that Aurors have used the unforgivable curses, and one would assume the “good guys” would not have the sadistic need to cause and enjoy pain in their victims. I also want to point out that even though Moody turned out to be a fake in 4, when he was demonstrating the spell do you really think he had a perverse pleasure in causing the spider pain?
I don’t think enjoy is the right word… there are too many things out there to show that not all enjoy it. I think it is a force of will thing… similiar to the will needed to cast a patronus, although these curses being the opposite of that. After all, if I remember correctly, it isn’t the casting of an unforgivable curse that earns one a life sentence, it is casting it on ANOTHER human… a distinct difference.
Araminta said,
January 29, 2006 at 4:56 pm
Right, Harry yelled Crucio, and Bellatrix screamed, and then she stopped and started laughing and informed Harry about the fact that you have to mean it to perform the curse.
You know, Harry might not have ever actually cast the spell, but Bella simply screamed because of the apprehension. Obviously LV conditions his DE’s and uses the Crucio as a punishment form, I’m sure Bella has been Crucio’ed by LV many times. Maybe she has been Crucio’ed so many times that she heard Harry say it and screamed from recognition for the word, before she’d ever been hurt. Sort of like how children cry before the needle in a shot ever touches their skin.
Or I suppose, he did do it and became horrified (even subconciously, if he didn’t realize it on a conscious level) with the fact that he was causing pure, unrestrained pain on another person. And then stopped. And this could also be another “where does the magic come from” point. Maybe Harry’s Phoenix tail feather (from Fawkes) allows Fawkes to decide. But then, LV also has a Fawkes feather and he doesn’t seem to have any problems casting Unforgivables.
And to answer the AK is different from Crucio thing…it could possibly be right if we assume that the AK really doesn’t cause pain. Because the Crucio gives you mindwrenching, insanely surreal pain, and the AK is just to kill you. Which is bad. But still, I suppose it’s so fast you don’t even feel it.
But if that’s true, why does Harry hear his mother screaming when he’s around the dementors? He thinks he’s hearing her last moments, Lily screaming as the AK is fired, because he also gets flashes of green light. But why is she screaming? Obviously, you know he’s about to kill you, but would you scream? I personally wouldn’t, I’d be more sobbing and pleading for LV to just go away, and leave me and my baby alone, than screaming my lungs out. Maybe it’s pain because she knows James is gone? But it really doesn’t fit. So either the memory is wrong, and Harry hears his mother being Crucio’ed and just happens to also get the flash of green light mixed in (meaning it was two seperate memories mixed together) or it really does cause pain. Or something was different about Lily and the AK affecting her differently. Or she really did scream in her final moments.
I’m sorry, I’ve covered a ton of areas in this comment. I’m just typing out my train of thought here.
Rebecca said,
February 8, 2006 at 8:07 pm
I have to get in on this…
Someone mentioned that you really have to mean it to use an Unforgiveable. Presumably, Harry couldn’t cause Bellatrix pain when he cast Crucio because he didn’t mean it. Although whoever mentioned the fact that Bella may very well be desensitized to the Crucio makes an interesting point. So could Snape be not evil and cast Avada Kedavra on DD? I say yes.
Snape had to have meant it to have killed him. At first I thought the look of hatred on his face was pretty damning to me, but now I’m beginning to think that this hatred has to do with what DD is making him do. He may really hate him for making him go through with all this, to have to go back to LV for good, to ruin his name permanently. I’d say killing one of the most powerful wizards in the world is a big black mark on your record. There is also the possibility that Snape meant it in mercy. Dumbledore may have been dying anyway from his horcrux injuries. Presuming the AK causes no pain (surely not as much as Crucio anyway), he was granting DD a release from his suffering. Was Dumbledore actually pleading with him to go through with it rather than pleading for his life? It’s possible.
Jasonx said,
February 11, 2006 at 2:01 pm
Anyone think of the mirror of erised being a Horcrux. I just reread SOS(POS)
and i read the description of the mirror. Sounded pretty Ravenclawey to me. What do u all think. It would be pretty cool that what Voldemort saw in the item that had granted him immortality was him being immortal.
jane said,
February 13, 2006 at 12:34 pm
Hey Jason, I already wrote somewhere around this site that the mirror theory does not seem plausible if one considers that the mirror did not help LV - it would probably do, however, should it have his soul in it, wouldn’t it.
As to the AD dead/alive discussion - I personally was pretty sure he was dead when reading but now on thinking and reading the discussions I am not so sure any more, especially because it has been stated in several places that the Avada Kedavra curse leaves no traces… RavenclawWit says we cannot be sure about the way the curse works (fall dead immediately or not, eyes open or shut) - right, but this we do know (or so it seems…) Well, we’ll see…
I like the suggestion that Snape was only saying A.K. while thinking something else (since I am in the Snape-is-good camp
)
jane said,
February 13, 2006 at 4:42 pm
and to Jo and Michael - I wonder whether Dumbledore ever killed, leaving murdering aside completely. Even in the Ministry he was trying to use some special sort of magic against LV that would not have killed him (LV laughed at Dumbledore being above killing, Dumbledore said something about death being too little of a punishment) - it is possible that he used the same sort of magic to cope with Grindelwald (who if not Hitler himself then possibly was the power behind Hitler, it is not a simple parallel, there must have been some immediate relationship, Imperius curse maybe or something)
Michael said,
February 14, 2006 at 11:45 am
Interesting Point Jane about the AK, but what traces were actually left on Dumbledore? Yes there was blood, but when one falls from the top of a castle, that is probably going to happen. Unfortunately, we don’t know what is from the fall and what would be from a spell other than AK. I still think AD is dead, but his portraits (especially the one in the office) will be there to dispense advice etc. The stories do have a small bit of Star Wars influence in them (although I am pretty sure we won’t see a “Harry… I am you father” moment.) so I can see that happening. We know Aberforth plays a role in the new one… so it COULD be possible that AD is hiding out as Aberforth, but I highly doubt it. The mirror Sirius gave Harry is supposed to play a role as well, so we shall see.
jane said,
February 14, 2006 at 12:20 pm
I do actually think that AD is dead, he must be, it would be somehow too… vulgar for no better word… to keep him alive after such a dramatic departure, but I still am not persuaded about your AK argument - AK pretty much freezes the body, and in any case kills pretty quickly, so by the time AD hits the ground his blood should not be running through his body any more methinks.
The two-way mirror - yes of course - but I doubt it will be in connection with AD. Rather RAB…
But then there is the veil… And one can hear voices… Luna does, doesnt she, and she is not as crazy as she seems.
Durwen said,
February 27, 2006 at 6:53 am
I have been thinking about the Dumbledore/Snape issue for some time now. Last weekend I re-read HBP and I came to the conclusion that Snape didn’t betray Dumbledore (the murder was somehow was agreed). I’m relying this entire teory in just one sentence: when Dumbledore says Snape saved his life when he was cursed by the ring. Therefore, Snape had a perfect chance to actually murder Dumbledore and he didn’ do it. I do believe, however, that Dumbledore is actually dead. We have his corpse, his portrait, etc. It would have been possible for someone to polymorph into Dumbledore and cheat Harry all night long, but I doubt Dumbledore would have allowed someone to be killed in his place.
About Regulus, I did’nt think about him until I read this page. But now it comes to it, it would be perfectly possible for him to be the mysterious R.A.B.who stole Slytherin’s locket (Regulus Whatever Black).
I still hope beyond hope Sirius will eventually reapear, being he not actually dead, but lost in a limbo.
Angela said,
June 13, 2006 at 1:54 pm
I think that the pleading from DD was that he would rather have Snape be the one responsible for his death rather than Draco. You know that DD hold youth and innocence in the highest esteem. I like all the RAB theories. Fun stuff to ponder over.
fffhggg said,
June 17, 2006 at 6:36 pm
I have looked over my notes about what I have read .I am thinking could R.A.B be the 1st letter of 3 different wizards names possibly regulus and bellatrix black for R and B I am not sure about A but maby araminta meliflua the cousin of sirius black or maby even flinch I meen after all his 1st name dose start with an A . Of course there all capible
fffhggg said,
June 17, 2006 at 6:57 pm
or could it be 3 order of the phoenix mebers that are trying to stop he who must not be named and whats the deal with the minister he should be sending in wizards all over the world to look for he who must not be named.
fffhggg said,
June 17, 2006 at 7:05 pm
I think snape ((snake)) is an evil scummy jerk that just kills to be he who must not be names top man
Smallville said,
June 28, 2006 at 7:03 am
I think Dumbledore is dead — if you think about it this had to happen in order to free Harry up to be able to fight Voldemort. In all the other books, Dumbledore was always around to protect Harry and with him still alive Harry wouldn’t go after Voldemort alone as i’m sure he will in the last book. Dumbledores death forces Harry to grow up and finally face Voldemort himself. As for Snape — i am definately part of the Snape-is-not- evil brigade and think the Snape killed Dumbledore because Dumbledore asked him to. When Dumbledore says “Please Severus” i don’t think he’s begging not to be killed — afterall, that doesn’t sound like Dumbledore at all, but rather asking Severus to do the right thing and kill him.
Hazel said,
June 28, 2006 at 7:26 am
“No, Draco,” said Dumbledore quietly. “It is my mercy, and not yours, that matters now.”
Dumbledore and Snape knew exactly what had to happen in the space of a few moments. What Harry saw as murder, Dumbledore and Snape saw as a sacrifice. Snape did this because he had to - whatever the consequences.
“There will come a time, to choose between what is right and what is easy”
Snape did not choose the easy path; he chose the right path
Snape gazed for a moment at Dumbledore, and there was revulsion and hatred etched in the hard lines of his face. I think that Snape and Dumbledore — both highly accomplished Legilimens — were having a final furious argument in these last moments….the look of hatred on snapes face was at what he had to do, not at Dumbledore…
“Severus…please…”
And then Snape did the most difficult thing he’d ever had to do…he chose what was right…he killed the only man who had ever trusted him, the only man who he trusted. I don’t think you should underestimate how alone Snape felt….his whole life he was an outcast, unloved and unwanted…its what made him become a deatheater in the first place…a sense that he wanted to belong somewhere…that he wanted to be part of something which even in the tiniest way must have been like a family to him…until Dumbledore. Dumbledore trusted him and made him part of something…
Then when Harry called him a coward.
“Don’t–” screamed Snape, and his face was suddenly demented, inhuman, as though he was in as much pain as the yelping, howling dog stuck in the burning house behind them– “CALL ME COWARD!”
He killed Dumbledore because Dumbledore asked him too even tho this must have killed part of himself in the process…And that makes him loyal…and shows that he truely loved Dumbledore
Therefore Snape is a hero…an unlikely one…but a hero. And if he turns out not to be…i will beat my pillow in disgust and be glad that there are no more Harry Potter books to come…well maybe not glad
Viva Severus Snape
CHRIS said,
June 29, 2006 at 4:56 pm
I THINK SNAP IS WORKING FOR THE ORDER. IF HE WANTED TO KILL HARRY HE WOULD OF JUST AS EASY (OR WE THINK) AS HE DID DD. DD NEW WHAT WAS HAPPENING OR WHAT WAS ABOUT TO HAPPEN THAT IS WHY HE PUT A SPELL ON HARRY WHERE HE COULDN`T MOVE SO IT COULD PLAY OUT. OR THEY WOULD OF FOUGHT AND TRIED TO HELP THE OTHERS.
Zak said,
October 29, 2006 at 1:57 pm
First, i think that Dumbeldore is NOT dead. At School, i did a poll with the kids who have read Harry Potterand 73% of them said he was not. Dumbeldoreis not dead
Vector said,
February 9, 2007 at 11:32 am
Funny how folk seem to be saying Snape is not evil if he killed Dumbledore - because Dumbledore may have asked him to - or because he made a vow to Narcissa - or whatever. Strange view you folk have about coold blooded murder if you think that either of those things makes it okay.
Ends don’t justify means, at least not when it comes to the murder of an innocent and unarmed old man.
Besides, although I can imagine that Dumbledore might make the ultimate sacrifice if he knew with certainty it would lead directly to Voldemort’s demise, but merely to strengthen Snapes standing with LV in hopes of aiding the cause in some indirect way - I don’t think so. And I cannot imagine that Dumbledore would willing have left Harry to fend for himself at this stage in proceedings.
So the idea that Dumbledore asked Snape to kill him is quite a stretch, frankly. But even if he did, that doesn’t exonerate Snape from an act of pure evil - it merely implicates Dumbledore in his own death.
AEM said,
May 15, 2007 at 3:47 am
Hello all,
I wonder if maybe we are missing the point. Maybe Snape is the only person in the whole series that is actually neither black or white but actually grey.
A person who is generally after his own gain, but not really bad. A person like that is missing in the series. All of them can be clearly put into one of the 2 contradicting sides.
A torn-in-between-person is clearly missing.
ME said,
June 18, 2007 at 6:21 pm
I very much agree with AEM on snape! He also shouts DONT CALL ME A COWARD at the end of book 6, and that would indicate he didnt like killing DD but that DD made him do it. But maybe DD believes him to be good and Voldemort believes him to be evil. While he is half way. He acts in his own gain, and just hasnt decided yet what he is going to be. Maybe he’ll do something in book 7 that will offend Voldemort, so he becomes his enemy, and he will help Potter just because it will help him too. That keeps him bad aswell as good. It would suit his caracter completely, don’t you think?
Cliff said,
June 20, 2007 at 3:42 pm
My orginal reaction was easily that Snape was clearly evil, but I do not want to believe that because Dumbledore seemed so secure about the whole situation. Even when the other death eaters were out there and he knew he was a dead man. His pleading clearly isn’t for his life because he had already accepted that to be the end. A lot of what makes me partial to the idea of Snape being good comes from this site:
http://whysnape.tripod.com/hbp/hbp.htm
Another point I’d like to make is that Dumbledore is definitely dead. Believing otherwise is simply wishful thinking. Snape made the Unbreakable Vow to kill Harry if Draco did not, and we have no reason to beleive that vow can be fooled. Other people may be fooled, but not this magically binding contract - there is just no way to lie about it. Since Snape is not dead, Dumbledore must be.
Cyn said,
June 23, 2007 at 5:50 pm
I do believe that Dumbledore is dead. There is no reason for him not to be. He can still help Harry through his portrait. Also, it seems as if Dumbledore FINALLY thought it would be a good idea to hurry up and show Harry all this information about the horcruxes. Why? Because he probably knew. Dumbledore is not all-knowing and not all-powerful. If we was, he would have stopped all this from happening a long time ago and we’d be very bored readers.
I find it interesting that two of the unforgivable curses have played such an important role in the books, but not the other one. One killed Harry’s parents, the other put Neville’s in St. Mungos - but what about the imperious curse? Sure, you hear about it here and there, but has it really truly affected the over-all story?
There’s something about that double picture of Snape in book stores that’s got me thinking. I’ve heard a theory that there are actually two Snapes - one is simply someone drinking polyjuice potion. A good theory, but it’s already been used in GOF, and I’d be disappointed in Rowling if this does happen to be the case. But who’s to say there aren’t literally two sides of Snape? Perhaps he’s a puppet, contantly being controlled by an imperious curse placed upon him by Dumbledore and/or random Death Eaters at different times (which there seems to be one nearby more than half the time)?
Who’s to say that Snape, whether under the impoerious curse or not, has Dumbledore under an imperious curse? That’s the kind of double twist I’d be expecting from Rowling. The two have been possibly playing each other.
Another interesting idea is that Snape has been good like Dumbledore expected and made that oath fully knowing that Dumbledore was getting weak-willed and would need to die before Voldemort took control of him and used Dumbledore’s powers for dark magic. Dumbledore most likely realized this too, which may be why he showed Harry all this information, then begged Snape to kill him when he felt that Snape may falter.
Personally, I don’t think Snape is loyal to either side in the end. He’s a Slytherin, which is a Harry Potter term for Machiavellian. The end justifies the means - the ultimate Chaotic Neutral character who does what is best for him at that particular time.
bob said,
July 15, 2007 at 3:19 pm
I read in this site that the reason DD trusts snape might be cause of a unbreakable vow. But if thats the case who is the bonder? Maybe we could consider the possiblity that Regulus is in it with them. Dd might have known regulus had taken the real locket but went there anyways to stage his death.
Sam said,
July 16, 2007 at 9:38 pm
Snape is definately good. Dumbledore would never plea for his life. Just before Snape kills Dumbledore, Dumbledore looks up to him and says “Severus please”, and that wasn’t a plea for his life, it was a plea to end it. Now, I believe he said that for one of two reasons: to save Draco from having to kill him, or two, so one of the death eaters doesn’t get the satisfaction of the kill.
Besides the fact, either Dumbledore or Voledemort has been totally duped and I can’t beleive the JK would make Dumbledore the one fooled.
GuitarKid said,
July 18, 2007 at 1:31 pm
All right, two things.
First of all, Regalus is definately dead. Otherwise, Kreacher would have passed to him, instead of Harry, and Harry wouldn’t have been able to give him orders. Just my view.
Second, I believe that Snape is good, based on the killing scene. Only minutes before Dumbledore was killed, he showed that he trusted Snape, telling Harry to fecth Snape in order to cure him of the potion. Before they left to get the Horcrux, Dumbledore tells Harry that he completely trusts Snape. Why would he beg Snape for his life, if he still believed Snape to be an ally showing up in the midst of unfriendly Death Eaters? I think that he was begging Snape to sacrifice him, so Snape could keep his cover. He knew about Snape’s Unbreakable Vow, and was saving Snape’s life. Dumbledore also doesn’t fear death at all, and would never beg for his life. Such begging is incredibly inconsistant with J.K. Rowlings vision of Dumbledore, and would completely undermine the “death is a part of life” theme present in all her books. Snape must have sacrificed Dumbledore on Dumbledore’s orders.
Guess we’ll just have to wait for the book to find out how wrong we all are.
bob said,
July 24, 2007 at 12:04 am
yay! snape is good!!!and rab is regulas